Now.

And and it was like.

No.

Hello. Hello.

I'm guessing that somebody has some new toys.

Do you have a new mic set U there, maribeth?

I'm going to take that as an absolute yes, because you're getting that fantastic mic with all that good sound ready to go.

Oh, my goodness. I cannot. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi. Mary Beth Salas here. I was just tweeting out the room. Yes, the toys just came. And so, everyone, I got a new. I got a mic set up, the whole eye rig and everything. I can blame that on Carlos Garcia, who is sitting right here next to me. Welcome to one spaces Tuesdays while I retweet out the room. Thank you, Carla, so much. My name is Mary Beth Salas. It is Tuesday today. What is it? October 18th?

Good.

I can't believe we're in Q4, by the way, but let me retweet out this space. And Carlos, thank you so much for coming by. And Leslie, hermie. Money. What's good? Art is my weapon. Why zeroed him brown. Dr smart. We have a ton of people that I've seen from my many days on Twitter spaces. So give me one moment while I tweet this out. And hello, who is here? Carlos. One second, please. But what you got, Carlos? Probably do this.

Yeah, no, uh, just actually this, uh, this weekend into this week's been pretty busy doing a lot of stuff. I also like how when you came back in, I think you said something several times in a row to make it sound like it was an echo, to play off the actual echo that you had with your new audio equipment, which I I totally appreciate. Leslie, how are you doing? Welcome up here. What a day, what what a week it's been. It's actually been pretty active.

In the legal world, Leslie, how have things been in the women, women of basketball world and all that other stuff? How's life?

Hey Carlos, Marybeth when spaces. This is Leslie Mota and it's been very, very busy. My wrist really, really hurts. But I can't stop now. It won't stop now. Uh, we are getting ready to begin minting next week. So very, very excited about that. I think the girls are coming out dope. We have a special person that has had sneak peek and previews to them, but because she's special.

Nobody else has really had previews because even what I have up on the Twitter space, they're similar to those but a little different.

Did you make her sign an NDA?

Uh, no, no.

Yeah. Yeah, that's right. I thought look at that. That's OK. That's OK.

She's very trusted. Source.

Speaking of sources, so think what's up. Leslie? Good to see you.

This is gonna be a good day. I was just reading up on SC stuff, but Carlos, what do you have today?

What? What does that stand for?

SEC.

Not football. Not football. Securities and Exchange Commission. So.

On a side note, this is totally not legal. Related what what would you think if I started going by Carlos Antonio?

Carlos, Antonio and Mary Beth.

Ohh.

Mary well, I would have to ask you first if you see Ablis Espanol if that's.

See see impoco opera. You know, hello mucho, so it may.

I don't know. I'm working on it. Leslie's going to help me learn Spanish at some point.

Awesome being vanilla.

See.

The oil on Carlos Garcia. Leslie Mota oyas. What is it? Martius. So welcome, welcome. Great. Perfect.

See, see, see. Yeah, you. You know honestly the. So yeah, there's a little bit of activity with the SEC and the FTC. I feel all SEC out after last week. Everybody was so up in arms about the whole Youga thing and NFT's and a coin and like we beat the dead horse to death many times over this week, actually what I what I kind of wanted to talk about today.

Was a little bit more about intellectual property because there there's there's a lot of things that we we literally have that we just haven't talked about. I don't hear them talked about very often in spaces. And that's the difference between trademarks and copyrights and actually what's trademarkable because I think a lot of people would would be surprised to know things like.

You can actually trademark a color for a specific purpose and specific categories. For instance Brown it is and and anybody can go look this up in the in in a system called tests. It's basically the the trademark database UPS for instance owns that. They kind of hold a monopoly over the color brown when it comes to delivery services. So there's really cool things. You can even trademark a Jingle the you guys ever hear that NBC Jingle.

Done. Done. Done.

Yeah, but that was a little off. But yes, I know exactly what you're talking about.

Yeah, slightly off, slightly off, uh. But yeah, things like that are are trademarkable. So a lot of cool things that I think a lot of people haven't talked about or maybe they don't know about.

OK, well then I have a question first. So I know that basketball is upon us and the NBA, for example. If anyone didn't know this, does anyone know who the figure of the NBA logo is?

It it's Jerry was OK.

Yes, I think it's whole. I I'm not Googling this, but I know there. Who who is it?

Jerry West, unless someone wants to contest that.

Just say.

Leslie, do you agree with this?

That's between you and Mary Beth.

OK so you know knowing that it is a specific individual and while I just said that I'm going to go ahead and Google that Jerry West NBA, here we go NBA logo there we go, it is him. So it is his likeness right now if this were if this had have happened you know the formal way.

Would he have maybe a contract with the NBA to use this, this his likeness, right? And you know, it's his shape, it's his move. There's actually a specific photo of him that the logo is, you know, pose after. So I was wondering how does that even work?

Yes, Sir. So NIL law is something that's very disjointed. Generally when it when it comes down to people's personas that is all going to be based on state law and depending on where you are like there's a reason that a lot of this takes place the the litigation when it comes to.

And it also takes place in California because they generally have more favorable views towards how much you can protect your name and likeness.

But it it just depends. I I don't know it that's a good research project for me to go look and see actually where the photo came from, what state it may have been litigated in. But definitely the the whole analysis within IRL stuff starts at the state level and and you kind of ask yourself OK, where where's the is, is this my name and likeness, is it being used in, in commercial use, those sorts of things.

OK, so let's, but let's level down then. So is there someone or some project or individual maybe in the web three world or even in tech? Actually we don't even have to talk about Web three that we could compare this to. So I did pin up at the top. So if anyone was wondering, this is indeed LA Lakers, Jerry West's likeness, his image right from him playing on the court. So for example, like would Jordan, you know his.

Hmm.

Little movement, right? Of him flying in the air with the ball, Carlos, that's something similar, right?

Yeah, absolutely. The the jump man. And now that's a, that's a trademark all unto itself.

O yeah.

Amazing dope. Go ahead, Dr smart, welcome.

Hey, how y'all doing?

Awesome. How are you?

Doing well.

Hey, pretty good, pretty good. You know, with your question, it made me have another question. I'm a big Star Wars fan and with James L Jones giving his voice to Disney basically, or any Star Wars in the future, I was wondering, do you know how those of those trademarks will work, you know, just going to feature using somebody else's voice?

Yeah. So so there's this, this may be a bit of a snoozer for people but there's there's something very specific when it comes down to what are called archival voice recordings. So there's there's a difference between that and then the person owning their own voice and and being able to do new things. Obviously James Earl Jones has very very it has a very distinct voice and he he signed over some rights there.

Purchased by by the franchise and and so they own in perpetuity you know his his voice rights essentially but that's.

I I guess what you're asking is how, how does that all happen? Basically they they have the, you know, the the context that the voice is used in, that's what they buy the the copyright for and then you know they can use it however they want.

Thank you very much.

Yeah, absolutely. I'm a big Vader fan too, so.

Fun facts for anyone. I don't know if it's that fun, but I've never seen Star Wars, Leslie.

Since we're talking about logos and stuff like that, and you know, you're familiar with my women's project and my logo and I do have certain colors, do you think that I might find any restrictions with the women's NBA? They do have, I believe, 3 shades of orange.

You know, I I don't know. Perhaps I mean that. That's why in in almost every situation, we start with a trademark search to see if anybody is using it.

But the the more distinct it is from something that's already existing. Obviously the WNBA probably has a number of trademarks and copyrights already, so the the farther you can differentiate yourself the better. I don't know if they do do they own the the actual colors?

It within that category.

Yeah.

I don't know. I'm going to look that up. Yeah, they're logo is very similar to the men's. You know, the silhouette mimics or is similar to that. So my logo is a little bit different. I try to separate that a little bit.

But I mean, I'm curious about the colors, so I'm gonna have to look that up ASAP.

Gracias, muchas gracias, Carlos.

Yes ma'am they know that ohh let let me give the the disclaimer anything that I say U here is not legal advice general questions definitely happy to to answer those the and anything that Mary Beth and I say for the the duration of this is not legal or financial advice. So just keep that in mind if you guys need legal or financial advice get with a licensed professional but happy to to take some questions up here.

Money, Mom, how are you doing today?

Hey, hey, I'm great. How you guys doing? I'm just listening right now. Uh, I'm sure I well, I I have a question but it's not really on topic like of like picture trademarks per se.

Throw it out there. What is it?

So I was wondering about like Twitter handles and you know things like that when it comes to branding because I don't I've I've heard it but I have, I don't see it. Often of people actually trade marking their social media like I guess personality names versus you know like a company name that's trademark. Is that a difference or you know do you have the rights to do you have the rights to name automatically if you have the trademark like for your.

The company, your business like, how does that work?

Yeah, so the the trademark itself is generally going to start before the Twitter handle is created or anything. Twitter does have in place a process for for trademarks that are already in use. So there there is a way in all.

I'll defer to the Twitter terms of use you guys can check that out where you can come and and potentially potentially secure a handle but it's not the like trait the the trademark itself has to be based on more than just having a popular Twitter profile you have to file a trademark in certain categories and and so there's there's a little bit more to it but good question because I think a lot of people do get confused on that topic.

How how does do I, if I just become an influencer, do I do I trademark the name? If I do trademark something, what do I trademark it for? What categories is it is a merchandise, is it technology? There's there's a bunch of other questions that that come with that.

But good question.

And yeah so OK so check it out. If for example the money mom right let's just pretend that's free and clear and if she decides to file something on that now do do we have to take into consideration that her handle has a 3IN it for the E and money. So do we go ahead and file something on that exact spelling or how does that work or is it you know is she going to come across challenges if someone else.

Has you know something called money mom or the money mom, even though hers is spelled differently?

Yeah, so it it just, it depends on how it's going to be used. In commercial use, the handle itself is not determinative of what you should file for the trademark. So if it's just that, the only handle available, what? And I'll generalize this, if the only handle that was available is one that uses a 3 instead of an E, well, it may just be that that's the the handle that you have to use. And unless you're going to continue to use that number in the same way.

Their branding outside of a social media handle would just. It may not make sense to to trademark it using the three and you should just trademark it with the the common spelling. Again, all things being equal that that's.

The way generally that you should approach it, again, not legal advice, just my opinion. Go ahead mom.

Yeah. So with that, the reason why I have the three is because there's other money moms out there, right? So if I did trademark the money mom the name as a brand, like to a company, which I have not. But if I did do that, wouldn't have rights over the regular spelling of the money mom like would not have like, could I? Well, I know this isn't legal. Like exactly in your opinion, like would I be able to like Trump like the other money moms out there? Impossible because I know Twitter has it where

If someone has like your trademark name, like you can file a request to them and like they will give you the name somewhat like that. I've read that before. So would it be, you know, like if I'm say I was super branded and the money mom was my company, would it be, would it be beneficial for me to go ahead and like trademark it and then hit up Twitter like hey, you know, like I have this trademark on this name like and I like the other money moms to like take a seat.

I don't know but.

Yeah, it so that it it, it all depends on who was using the the mark commercially first. I mean there's there's a lot of things that go into the trademark and if you could just imagine like.

You know think of it like this when it comes to federal trademark law and and I don't want to get too too deep in the weeds but you're you're going to necessarily run into situations where maybe I have a a Carlos tacos here in Texas and there's another Carlos Tacos in Florida and and and we both have some rights to the name at least at the state level and then we start to move into federal territory. You know then the question becomes who is using it first? Can they come and contest it is there

Um, so it's not. The answer is it depends. And it really does depend on on a bunch of different facts and circumstances that are going to be specific to each situation. So I don't know it. You know, you have to ask questions like which, which money Mom was the first money mom, which which money Mom was putting that into commercial use first, bunch of different questions like that.

And I wanted to remind everyone, thank you so much for hanging out with us. We do have at the bottom right hand of your phone or your device. There is a little bubble right in that pill looking shape. Feel free to ask any questions there if you're not able to speak, if you're somewhere like at home or at the office and you can't speak out loud, please feel free to put any comments or questions there. We will kindly address them and otherwise feel free to request the MIC and we'll bring you right

Thank you.

Didn't mean to interrupt you Carlos. So I wanted to actually wanted to back this all up, right. There are people who you know right before the holidays when they have a little bit more time. They are starting off with their first NFT projects right now. A lot of people are thinking, great, I need the art, I'm going to get my website done, get the devs and everything. But sometimes we have to consider wait a second back up. We need to do this the right way, perhaps make it a business I mean.

Where do they start? Right. And one of the first answers that we get is, all right, cool. Start with forming some type of entity in the state that you're in or where you're operating if you want to take it from square to one there.

Carlos right there.

Oh, it's all good.

Sorry. Yeah, yeah, sorry. I was getting rugged. I was getting a phone call by Dad.

Yeah, give me, give me like the last 10 seconds of what you said.

Umm.

I was just talking about how like basically, AKA starter pack, right, someone launching their project and they have, you know, they're getting down with the art, they're getting their devs and engineers going and their website. And then some people are like, hold up a second. I think we need to make sure this is done the correct way, the business way. Maybe you should consider forming some type of entity in your state. Is that true? Is that the best, you know, first step?

Yeah, I think so that that's a good point. Anytime you're going to be engaging in commerce or doing any sort of business, it's always advisable to have some sort of business entity in place so that you can protect your own personal wealth. In a lot of ways that's that's what it comes down to. Whenever you're forming a corporate entity that just allows you to to sort of segregate the assets that that you own personally from those of the business.

And then those potentially would not be subject to a lawsuit in the future. So yeah, I think you know any, any business that's operating anywhere, I don't care if it's an informal NFT project. It's really cheap to file an LLC. It's not very hard to do and that's that, that's one of the best ways to protect yourself.

Awesome. So, OK, let's say I'm in the state of, let's just say, Florida, OK, and I form an LLC, by the way. It's not the only option there are, you know, in terms of entities as Corp C Corps, but we'll just go with an LLC right now and then do we file? What's the point? Do we have to file it? Do we file trademarks right away or do we? Is that not applicable because we haven't really operated yet or put certain things into use?

Yeah. So I I think it it really comes down to just risk tolerance. How much do you want to protect your intellectual property right off the bat?

Here.

So you can, you can absolutely do it. There's a lot of of trademarks that have been filed over the last year that were filed under what's called an intent to use, which which is basically it means that you haven't put them into commercial use yet. You're just kind of thinking about it and it protects the trademark for about 12 months prior to actually perfecting it by putting it into commercial use. So there's you know, you can do that I think as a small business.

Especially in the startup world, you just kind of gotta weigh your options and say, is this like do? Is my brand in its current incarnation worth investing this much into to protect the trademark right now? And I'm not seeing in the long run it won't be important, but I think in the near term what would I tell a lot of projects is looking, you got to put your dollars, we're going where they're going to make the most money for you initially, and that may.

May or may not be in a trademark. I think the, you know, the question becomes at what what point do you want to start federally trade marking things because again you're going to have some sort of protection just by using something commercially but it it is a different type of protection that you get federally.

OK. So I've formed the, I'm going to go with LLC in Florida, you know, so I think a lot of people don't realize because that can be costly, right, even buying your domain, whatever you want that to be, starting your website, right. And then, you know, people have a little bit of trouble when they have to figure out, OK, I bought my domain and then let me get the hosting if that's different.

Do I need devs for my website? Right? And then OK great, we at least have a simple informational website and then we hop on the discord. Great. If I have a discord, then you know, maybe I need to buy some plugins or up the micro a little bit to customize it and then hold on one second. OK and then?

Yeah, yeah.

Great. Maybe with this trademark stuff that's not cheap. Or is it?

No I mean really it it depends on where where you go to file it. The thing I think that you know I I would I look at trademarks copyrights as something that takes moderate legal proficiency. It's it's definitely not something that's complex as is litigating like a you know a white collar crime with a ton of information or anything like that that's on the the.

You know the very complex end of the legal spectrum in terms of things that can be done, but I think it's probably somewhere in the middle. It requires some legal expertise mostly to figure out what categories to file in and and then to make sure that you know the process after if you're just if you're filing under an intent to use.

I mean, so OK, if I were to attempt to do this myself, which I have attempted to do. By the way, it is not as simple as one may think, right? And so I do recommend hiring a some type of professional to deal with this, like a legal professional that specializes in this so.

Four, there are different types of categories. I know that when you do file an application, you know, with an intent to use. I mean, especially, let's just take the NFT project, right? A lot of people have merch, and merch can cover a lot of things, whether you're doing coasters for the coffee table or apparel. Then you have all these different categories, right, that if you actually want to do some kind of heavy commerce in, we'd have to file for all of those categories.

Is that correct?

Yes, yes. And and you know just just remember and and this is something that a lot of people again forget it's not you don't just file a trademark. You file in a specific category for a specific purpose. And I think a big misconception out there is that if I just have let's say I'm you know Web three lawyers.

And I file a trademark and I get a trademark for web three lawyers. Well, in theory, could there be like a a web three lawyers pizzeria that comes along maybe might be a little harder because the word lawyers is in there. So there would be presumption that you're practicing law. But you get the point here. It's you. You have to file under certain categories and make sure that you're pretty precise with those.

So OK great. I do know that it is common and I've looked this up before everyone. So what I like to do sometimes to get the gist of hey you know I'm starting this project, which categories do I file in? Right? And obviously this is where you would want a professional to help you, but I've looked up.

Different things like alien friends, like V Friends, right? And I I see where they have filed their, you know, intent to use, you know, for trademarks, right? And a lot of NFT projects will file in maybe I would say average 4 categories. One always has to do with some kind of whether it's a computer software or something digital, OK, another one always has to do with merch, another one.

Always has to do with some kind of specific type of clothing, like a hat or headwear or something like that, and I can't remember what the other one is, but there always seems to be like 4 common categories that NFT projects tend to file these applications in.

Yeah. And I think like the the biggest thing is that for those companies that file trademarks with a basis is of intent to use just making sure that you go back and perfect those trademarks later when when you actually put them into commercial use.

It's it's totally up to the company. As you know you can file in as many categories as you want. Now it does it, it does get pretty expensive to file in multiple categories. Just statutory filing fees alone are 250 per category and then you if you're doing an intent to use it's an an additional 150 per category. So there's you know that's why people want to think about it. You never want to waste thousands of dollars trying to reserve a trademark.

Multiple categories that you'll never use. It just doesn't make financial sense in my point of view. I mean, that's just my opinion. So.

So check this out. Alright so I'm using this just as an example if it's pinned to the top right now. Another sports example, but for example the lazy lines. I am a lazy lion so I just thought I'd use an example of a community that I'm currently in.

And if you click on that PIN, tweet up top and click on that picture, so on the bottom they have, you know they have trade groups, right? Lazy Sports Club is a trade group of the Lazy lions. And within that trade group they got teams together like the Lazy Lion L Red shirt and the lazy refs and the LL blue shirts, right? Just based on specific traits that the Lions wear, right? So we're getting super detailed in.

To these traits. Now if I owned for example the all of these Three Lions, for example in the lazy blue shirt logo, right? So the blue shirt sports lions of the lazy lions, they have their own logo. So if I am the owner of all three of these lions, would I be able to take all these Three Lions in the circular logo? And what do I can I do with that and I have.

Let's say lazy lions, their terms of use, I'm able to use my own PFPS, right? For commercial, I have the license to use my PFP's in commercial use, right? So would I be able to combine all of these three things and make that my own? And is that still considered a trademark or is that a copyright at this point? But that's more words, right?

Yeah, that's. So that's that's actually a really common misconception I think you're seeing out there in the NFT space there there's definitely a difference between a trademark and having a commercial use license for a copyright, which is which what most projects do. So in general, and I'll say in general, because there are a number of facts and circumstances that could change a lot of the.

Stuff that we talked about in the legal context. You can't take something that you have a commercial use license for for the copyright and turn that into a trademark. Now there there's always going to be different.

Oh, can you, can you splice that up really quickly? Because I think you just differentiate the what the two things that you just put together.

Yeah, so. So a copyright is is more it. It's kind of to allow a creator and artist, a copyright owner, to continue monetizing a piece of intellectual property. A trademark is more consumer facing it. It's more about brand identity and authenticity. So they're meant to protect two different things. But a lot of people get confused when it comes down to getting a some form of commercial use license.

Um and aft project and then taking it and turning that into a trademark. In general it is not possible to turn A to to create a trademark from a copyright that you have simply a commercial use license for.

OK, so.

And think about it like this, think about it like this, OK if I say I took my mutant and I said look I just I want to make Carlos's law firm and and I just my only trademark is going to be this mutant. And I know I have a commercial use license to it, but I'm going to turn this into a copyright. It's, it's probably not going to you know?

Or, excuse me, I'm going to turn this into a trademark. I just said copyright, but I meant trademark. I I can't take my copyright and then turn it into a trademark.

OK.

Does that make sense? Was that kind of a?

Well, OK, So what can?

What do we file the copyright for then?

Like if you're using the the commercial use license for your NFT.

Yeah.

I I think you know, maybe there's an argument to be made if there's some far attenuated derivative that you create from it. I I would not advise a client to create a copyright from a trademark, so I'd say just don't do it.

Yeah.

OK. So we would OK from, so we just don't file any of this stuff for the already existing NFTS that we have, is that what you're saying?

Well, yeah, I'm, I'm saying specifically it gets, it's a very murky area when you're trying to create a trademark out of a copyright. So I would just say, you know, it's, it's a big hassle. There's a bunch of different rules that are going to come into play. And generally you can't just take a, a copyright and turn it into a trademark as a, you know, as part of your brand identity.

Leslie.

OK, let me make sure I have this right. So intellectual property that can be trademarked cannot be copyright it, and intellectual property that can be copyrighted cannot be trademarked, correct.

No and so and and and and I say no it's look it's a very nuanced area I think and and Ira please feel free to hop in here. What we're talking about is copyrights and trademarks and taking the copyright from an NFT that you own. If you if you have an if you have a a commercial use license for the copyright you you can't generally take that and then turn it into a trademark.

And can I ask why? I'm just learning, I'm just trying to.

Yeah, yeah so.

Because there there are two different protections. I don't, I don't know if you have a.

A good rationale behind why I mean it it it sort of negates copyright law altogether. If you could just take it, take a license and turn it into your own trademark that you own. But.

Well, I mean they, they, they cover two different things. So trademark is all about brand protection and the source of goods.

And preventing consumer confusion, quality control.

The copyright is all about, you know, getting essentially a monopoly on a creative work reduced to a tangible form.

I suppose it's theoretically possible.

That if somebody.

Has some a copyright and some something that's artistic.

And had meet some minimum level of creativity that they could convert it, not convert it, they could also get.

A trademark as a source of goods.

I know Disney does a little bit of that and so it is quite it is possible, but there are two different things, two different analysis and it's not a conversion. I've seen it actually also in court. Somebody comes in.

And.

Sues someone else.

It's a trademark case.

But they're suing someone else for.

Copying their logo or something and they don't articulate it correctly.

I see courts be very nasty.

And say there's copyright preemption because you're not really suing over.

Likelihood of confusion? You're suing over so on copying something.

For which you own no copyright in and so they dismissed the case because.

The lawyers are not nerdy enough in the way that they articulated the claims so.

It's certainly.

A lot of complexity. You need a lot of legal advice in this area, but if you sort of keep it.