Will Crypto Survive 2022 A Coinage Chat with Do Kwon
November 14th, 2022

Speakers & Hosts
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  • coinage_media01:03:18 PM

    Welcome everybody into today's spaces. Here, a discussion on another coinage Web 3 chats, excited to dig into the topic of today, although I wish I was more excited than I am, as we as an industry continue to grapple with a lot of the issues we've been seeing pulling out this year around solvency and risks in the crypto ecosystem. It's obviously been a year of massive failures in crypto, starting earlier this year with one that we had a front seat for a lot of people.

    coinage_media
  • coinage_media01:03:48 PM

    The front seat four when it comes to Terry, including our guest and the rest of the year other centralized crypto platforms including Celsius and Voyager. Struggling to deal with some of those issues that have played out in 2022 and as we've seen the latest collapse here with FTX, a lot of the parallels I think can't be ignored and it's something that we as a community on crypto show here at coinage want to explore and want to learn a bit more about with today's guest if you've watched our first

    coinage_media
  • coinage_media01:04:09 PM

    You know him already, the founder of Terraform Labs and the Terra Project Dequan. Appreciate you joining us today man to to chat about all these things and dig into I suppose what I think a lot of people are curious to get in what is a larger debate going on around centralization in the crypto ecosystem and of course you know decentralized attempts to solve a lot of the issues.

    coinage_media
  • coinage_media01:04:29 PM

    So, yeah, thanks for thanks for hopping on and answering some of the questions and weighing in on on everything that's played out. Obviously we don't want to spend too much of the time rehashing anything from prior collapses specifically. There's lots to dig into around FTX and if people are more curious about, you know some other failures that have happened this year, we've been covering those.

    coinage_media
  • coinage_media01:04:31 PM

    4 coinage.

    coinage_media
  • coinage_media01:04:47 PM

    But First off, I guess we can just start with your reaction to what you've seen play out. Obviously the pace of this collapse is one that I think surprised a lot of people in the ecosystem and you've been watching, curious to your thoughts just around the speed of the collapse and what you've made of the last few days.

    coinage_media
  • stablekwon01:05:02 PM

    Yeah. Well, so first of all, thanks for having me Zach, and you know, thanks everyone for coming in. So as we were chatting in DMS, I first agreed to do this interview because.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:05:10 PM

    I was going to have a more neutral and balanced view in terms of what's happening with FX.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:05:14 PM

    With the recent developments, that's gotten harder.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:05:16 PM

    So.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:05:22 PM

    I mean, I think what's clear at this point is.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:05:34 PM

    It looks like, you know, FX was dipping into customer funds, that they were custody and they were in a bank. They weren't allowed to re hypothecate, you know, consumer funds.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:05:41 PM

    And then they were lending that out to their sister trading company Alameda. So just in general I think.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:05:43 PM

    Umm.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:05:47 PM

    That that that kind of behavior is just not excusable.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:05:50 PM

    Umm.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:05:56 PM

    I I have more nuanced thoughts on some of the rest of the things that are going on if you want to hear about it.

    stablekwon
  • coinage_media01:06:26 PM

    No, I mean, well, there's a lot. I mean as far as timelines are concerned, there's a lot from a game theory perspective and there's a lot that you and I discussed back, yeah, you know earlier this summer around some of, you know, the attack vectors in some of these things, the game theory, the, the, the moves that played out over the last few days. And obviously a lot of people have kind of, I suppose reflected on the way that CZ from Binance talked about FT token in the open, talked about dumpi

    coinage_media
  • coinage_media01:06:57 PM

    You know what we've learned as you said about FTX and the relation with Alameda research since then and whether or not had this not been discovered if it would have gone on deeper. But I think part of the reason why we wanted to have this conversation with you is because when we chat in the summer, you also raised the point that there aren't a lot of people in the crypto ecosystem who have overseen or been in a war room when it comes to a collapse like this. And it all played out I think right h

    coinage_media
  • coinage_media01:07:18 PM

    Around that and and removing it, I mean you've gone through something like that. What did you make of of I guess what we learned in regards to that and whether or not it was maybe a good thing for the industry, the way that it played out as far as again you know this sometimes projects that might go down if they get to be too big, they be too big to kind of have the industry survivable like that.

    coinage_media
  • stablekwon01:07:26 PM

    Well, I mean so first of all like the the one thing that I want to stress is I don't want to.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:07:44 PM

    I, I so I so like, the first clarification that I want to make is that I don't want to capitalize on what's happening with FX or what's happening to Sam personally. That that really isn't the motivation and the like. The intent of agreeing to this interview isn't too.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:07:52 PM

    Get on the things that he did. I I just thought that offering some of the context from somebody that's been under.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:07:54 PM

    A lot of stress.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:08:07 PM

    I guess depending on your perspective and somewhat of a similar situation could help people that are going through, you know, sort of stressful moments of their own get some closure.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:08:20 PM

    So I I think first of all, like before we get into like what it's like to be in the war room, I just want to stress that like while the two events look similar, they're not quite the same.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:08:29 PM

    Because for Terra and Luna, like, my main stress point came from the fact that there was very little that we could do to actually control things.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:08:30 PM

    In the sense that like.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:08:51 PM

    It it wasn't as if like when people were using UST, they were buying it from me, nor were when people custody in USD into anchor. It's not as if we took custody of those deposits and then use that to do, you know, various different things. It was a decentralized platform in the sense that like there was very little control that we had over the network.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:09:09 PM

    The user funds were being custodied. A lot of the market dynamics that were happening around the network were, you know, beyond our control. So a lot of the things that were happening in Paris war room during the crash is just trying to figure out what was going on.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:09:20 PM

    And try to figure out like very fast things in in a constrained amount of time to try to deal with it and and eventually we were unsuccessful.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:09:24 PM

    I don't know what it would have been like in the FTX or the Alameda War room.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:09:30 PM

    I I suspect that it had a lot to do with, let's say.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:10:01 PM

    You know, trying to get more capital or to defend the price of FT or something like that. But I don't really understand how their balance sheet works or how the lending relationship worked to be able to offer a useful insight. One thing that I will stress though is I think it is absolutely correct. The community and our industry come together to point out the unacceptable behavior and quite frankly a crime of using user funds.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:10:01 PM

    To.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:10:07 PM

    You know, fuel profits or effective altruism or whatever it is that the funds were spent on.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:10:19 PM

    But like one thing that you need to realize that during times like this, when everything's on fire, a lot of the things that you read on Twitter and mainstream media are just not going to be true.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:10:39 PM

    And which isn't to, you know, criticize the people that are speculating or to put this information out there. I do understand that in a time of scant information like there's a lot of pressure on the media to put information out, even though like that information might not be 100% verified because speed to information can be in some cases more useful.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:10:48 PM

    Then let's say something that's 100% verified, which is like in situations like like this, really really really hard.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:10:57 PM

    Now, but what I will say though is from the perspective of the listener. So if you are like coming across this information.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:11:12 PM

    And you're reading about how like Sam was having orgies with Caroline or something like that as Bahamas penthouse or like, you know, like he was on like 20, you know, 20 different types of meth, drugs or.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:11:18 PM

    You know, like how he was like terrible to his employers or something like that. Like the truth is likely gonna be somewhere in the middle.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:11:28 PM

    Between, you know this like those those things not happening and 100% of those things being true.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:11:38 PM

    And I think in order for us to contextualize what happened correctly as an industry like, we need to focus on the truths, especially during times in which it's hard to find.

    stablekwon
  • coinage_media01:11:40 PM

    Yeah.

    coinage_media
  • stablekwon01:11:55 PM

    Right. Because if we just say, like, oh, he abused a bunch of drugs, like he was a sex crazed animal, he just like scammed a bunch of people, then the learnings that we're able to take away from this as an industry is going to be a lot less than if we are very insistent on the facts.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:12:06 PM

    Get them straight, wait in some cases until those facts come out, and then try to evaluate how we can do better and how to prevent these things, like prevent things like this from happening again.

    stablekwon
  • coinage_media01:12:36 PM

    Yeah and I I don't want to shill too hard I suppose why you know we created coinage and we've talked about this before in terms of how a community owned crypto show came about. In regards to you I guess again only focusing on objective facts and you know Terraform was kind of I suppose one of our investors as was Alameda which we've again always disclosed into trustless media which is an incubator that's helping create web three community owned shows, coinage being the 1st.

    coinage_media
  • coinage_media01:13:08 PM

    Which is owned by our NFT holders, which again, when you put those biases together, the whole idea is that you are left only with objective facts. A lot of the times, you know, media companies might have interests, people who own them might have interests in terms of pumping their own projects or attacking others. The hope with this whole experiment was that you would have various different people speaking. From my point of view. Of course, when we raised earlier this year, it'd be hard to find

    coinage_media
  • coinage_media01:13:26 PM

    And we can get into this later. Sam had a pretty large position when it comes to Solana and the idea of having two competing L ones, you know, on the CAP table to get a community show off the board would be pretty good in regards to have those competing interests trying to help us position this. And now the year has, you know, played out very differently.

    coinage_media
  • coinage_media01:13:57 PM

    We've leaned on kind of, you know, everyone watching this play out and everyone's learning in real time. But I do want to echo your sense that, you know, focusing in on the facts are what we're here to do as far as what we've learned and where this goes. As far as you know, the two pieces that I think are pretty important to get your perspective on as someone who's built decentralized systems and obviously has watched I think some of the early solutions to the problems that have been presented f

    coinage_media
  • coinage_media01:14:19 PM

    The solution out there, there's also, as Binance revealed today, new interest in getting out an emergency fund when it comes to funding these things, which actually made me think a lot about what Tara had set up with LFG and the idea of having a fund to turn to when that was needed and whether or not you think that that is a good way to go.

    coinage_media
  • coinage_media01:14:33 PM

    So obviously there's lots to dive into, but I think maybe we can start here with just again the idea of centralization and we asked you about this earlier in the summer Celsius voyage or plenty of other projects going down. Let's start on transparency.

    coinage_media
  • coinage_media01:14:47 PM

    And contrasting these collapses, what do you make of the way that these things are different for the end user? Because everyone, myself included, has now you know block if I went down, there are other other centralized lenders who have halted withdrawals.

    coinage_media
  • coinage_media01:15:08 PM

    Um, and transparency is not there for a lot of these centralized lenders. No one knew exactly what position, as you said, FTX's balance sheet was in. So what do you make of transparency when it comes from the D, Phi promises of letting everyone know exactly how much is in these protocols with the liabilities are, what the assets are, and whether proof of reserves is the actual solution?

    coinage_media
  • stablekwon01:15:16 PM

    So I I think proof of reserves would have been less useful.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:15:24 PM

    You know, over the last year or so, I think going forward, at least in the short term midterm, they're going to be incredibly useful.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:15:34 PM

    And like the reason is, I don't think it's likely that, you know, lending firms are going to lend money to exchanges because they would immediately think it's sketch.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:15:51 PM

    So likely I think the credit rating of most of the crypto exchanges are likely going to approximate zero with maybe the exceptions of you know some of the better known entities like Binance, Coinbase or cracking. But I don't think they would they would ever borrow money so.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:15:59 PM

    Yeah. So I I think proof of reserves are going to be useful because if it's very hard for these exchanges to borrow money and if they do, I think it's going to leak very quickly.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:16:05 PM

    And in that case like them being able to show how much deposits they have relative to.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:16:13 PM

    Um, user balances is going to paint a fairly, fairly accurate picture of whether they're solvent.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:16:17 PM

    Now in the long term, when a lot of these things fade into memory and.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:16:19 PM

    I think they will.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:16:22 PM

    Then in that case that might become less useful.

    stablekwon
  • coinage_media01:16:35 PM

    Yeah, I think you know, uh, around the emergency fund too. That's another one that that does kind of again get back to the game theory question and I suppose maybe we can start with a simpler question.

    coinage_media
  • coinage_media01:16:39 PM

    Is whether or not you know, in this, sometimes people have to make tough decisions.

    coinage_media
  • coinage_media01:17:00 PM

    You know, you had to make tough decisions in all this as well, attempts to salvage a project knowing that a bunch of user funds were on the hook. I mean, what do you make? Even Brian Armstrong, Coinbase, weighed in on the idea that maybe Sam's not necessarily a bad person, but got caught up in a very tough decision. What do you make of the decisions that were made around, you know?

    coinage_media
  • coinage_media01:17:02 PM

    The user fund piece.

    coinage_media
  • coinage_media01:17:09 PM

    And exactly, I guess, your characterization of someone who's in a tough spot and the decisions they have to make and the ones that were made.

    coinage_media
  • stablekwon01:17:16 PM

    I.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:17:26 PM

    I mean, so I, I I don't think like whatever he did with the funds, there's like a gradient in terms of what's acceptable and what's not.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:17:34 PM

    So if you if if like, the expectation is that you're going to take users money.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:17:38 PM

    And that user's money is going to be held in a bank account or a wallet that you control.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:17:49 PM

    And you're communicating that these funds are totally safe. If you're not even investing in them as treasuries, then I I think you know, whether you gave them out as donations or.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:17:53 PM

    You know, supporting political campaigns or.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:18:00 PM

    Whether he was like using them to fund alameida.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:18:03 PM

    Relatively all unacceptable.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:18:04 PM

    Um.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:18:13 PM

    I so it it sounds like Sam's explanation is that there was like a mislabeling in the bank accounts at FTX.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:18:45 PM

    I I don't really understand how that creates a $10 billion hole though because it looks like if $5 billion which all in a single day basically, you know made them run out of all the liquidity, how do you like missable twice as much funds, right? So for example, if they were holding $100 billion and then one of their straight bank accounts is holding 9 billion, then maybe I think it's understandable, but like if it's $10 billion then that has to be.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:18:53 PM

    Are most important accounts, right? So like the size of the hole doesn't just quite add up.

    stablekwon
  • coinage_media01:18:57 PM

    I guess that gets back.

    coinage_media
  • stablekwon01:18:58 PM

    And, uh, but like having yeah, good.

    stablekwon
  • coinage_media01:18:59 PM

    Sorry, go ahead.

    coinage_media
  • stablekwon01:19:03 PM

    Yeah, but, but what I was going to say is like.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:19:09 PM

    Yeah, it looks like some of the things that happened in the FX crisis. Definitely criminal.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:19:11 PM

    But at the same time like.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:19:17 PM

    I I, I don't think like the community should devolve into just like.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:19:28 PM

    Um, you know, giving credence to like imaginary inhuman types of things that Sam would have engaged in, right? So like, so, for instance, like.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:19:36 PM

    Yeah, I mean like whether he had like drug fueled orgies or you know, like.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:19:58 PM

    He was like yelling at employees or something like that. Like after a while, like if you've run a large organization and you've had a lot of people work for you, especially during crises like this, you're just going to have a few ex employees jump up and say, oh hey, look and just, you know, you know, they could be telling one side of the story or they're just, they could just be making things up. But what I'm saying is like.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:19:59 PM

    Uh.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:20:05 PM

    Like believing all the stories about a person during the worst crisis.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:20:16 PM

    Right. In order to like put them in a demonic caricature so that you can understand that contextualize their crimes better is not the best way to get closure.

    stablekwon
  • coinage_media01:20:47 PM

    I mean, I guess I would ask the first question to follow up on that is, is if you feel like that happened, you know, when Tara collapsed and whether or not that was kind of the characterizations you saw. Obviously since, you know, we interviewed you, Laura Shinn interviewed you. You know, I think this experience maybe is changing people's opinions about centralized exchanges and of course as Web 3 media company, you know, we've been trying to educate the masses on self custody and why that's imp

    coinage_media
  • coinage_media01:20:49 PM

    I wonder if maybe?

    coinage_media
  • coinage_media01:21:20 PM

    It's also changed your personal opinions when it comes to anything that may have transpired earlier with the Terra collapse. You know, there were rumors of how active Alameda might be, and you and I actually discussed this, I think back in our interview at the beginning of the summer, right after Tara had collapsed. I just want to play a little bit of what you said during that question about whether or not you had thought at all about who might have been on the other side, maybe potentially shor

    coinage_media
  • coinage_media01:21:32 PM

    Had failed earlier this year. Let me just play 15 seconds of what you had to say back then and then ask you if your position is changed and I'll take a listen. I did not say that. I don't have an emotional response. I'm just saying that.

    coinage_media
  • coinage_media01:21:34 PM

    I've tried to make.

    coinage_media
  • coinage_media01:21:36 PM

    A calm headed decision.

    coinage_media
  • coinage_media01:21:42 PM

    To categorize this as business and to move on to other things.

    coinage_media
  • coinage_media01:22:04 PM

    Some curious dough since it's all transpired and I think a lot of people's opinions about Sam and Alameda maybe have changed, if you've given any more thought to the idea of who might have been pressuring the USD peg or anyone who may have maybe attempted to, I suppose, trigger any sort of panic run and we can get into panic runs in crypto after that. But first your thoughts there.

    coinage_media
  • stablekwon01:22:08 PM

    So.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:22:17 PM

    I mean, so I'm human, so I I I have a personal curiosity.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:22:21 PM

    A very strong personal curiosity in terms of.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:22:25 PM

    There are Alameda had anything to do with USD going down?

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:22:27 PM

    Um.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:22:38 PM

    But having said that, I I don't think that really changes anything, right? Because at the end of the day, like UST wasn't built to be a decentralized stable coin.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:22:39 PM

    That.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:22:50 PM

    Is able to withstand normal market conditions, but, you know, succumb to attacks, right? So it wasn't like a decentralized system that had to reply that had to rely on.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:22:57 PM

    You know, the calmness of markets, the ability for law enforcement to be sufficient deterrent for people to short the peg.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:23:01 PM

    Um, so at the end of the day, if it wasn't Alameda?

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:23:06 PM

    If it wasn't any of the other funds that are being alleged.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:23:09 PM

    In Twitter speculation, it might have been somebody else.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:23:15 PM

    So at the end of the day, the stable coin failed.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:23:24 PM

    And the and an entire ecosystem that was built around it was brought down. So I don't think any of that changes. So from that perspective.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:23:35 PM

    You know, like in my capacity as terrorist founder, I don't think it really changes anything, but I am curious personally speaking in terms of.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:23:43 PM

    What might have happened? And it looks like that throughout this process. It might take a while, but more information is going to come out.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:23:51 PM

    So I'll be I'll be eagerly waiting that information from our personal capacity, but my views have not changed.

    stablekwon
  • coinage_media01:24:23 PM

    Alright. Well that that view by itself maybe sounds like it has changed at least maybe a little bit from when we last spoke around at least a curiosity of of who might have been on the other side before. It sounded like you definitely didn't want to get into it as you focused on your other endeavors. And you do want to ask you about panic though because that's something that I think the entire industry has been reflecting on when it comes to crypto being an industry that really has operated with

    coinage_media
  • coinage_media01:24:39 PM

    Not needing the Fed and you know SF was really celebrated I think in in a lot of circles. Certainly the mainstream media celebrated it when it comes to him rescuing Voyager, stepping in to backstop Blockfi and now that it the Savior in this scenario has gone down.

    coinage_media
  • coinage_media01:25:11 PM

    I'd be curious if your takes around panic and what we've seen from, you know, the death spiral that occurred with Terra and then a lot of times exchanges facing intense customer withdrawals in a very short period of time. Again, the $5 billion in FX soft flow out and what, roughly 5 days without a lender of last resort, though without a backstop in the space? Is it the fact that that's just kind of the nature of the beast or is it really that we should see what sees promoting here having emergen

    coinage_media
  • coinage_media01:25:17 PM

    These things, or if we do have that, does that just recreate kind of the very same problem that crypto all along has been trying to avoid?

    coinage_media
  • stablekwon01:25:23 PM

    Um, well, let let me.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:25:36 PM

    Maybe, maybe I'll put it this way. So I remember when I first used to carry cell phones, you know, I like, I think, my first phone.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:25:44 PM

    Was like this device from, you know, Samsung or something like that and then you could remove the battery and then replace it with something else.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:25:49 PM

    Replace it with like a another battery that you would charge separately.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:25:52 PM

    And then I would always carry around.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:25:58 PM

    Like that battery separately, afraid that the main battery might go out.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:26:13 PM

    And I think crypto is kind of similar. So people are always on edge and they're worried about panics because it happens so often. So people are worried about keeping their money in D5 protocols, you know, leading yields to have to be really high.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:26:18 PM

    And they're worried about centralized exchanges because these failures keep happening.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:26:21 PM

    But think about like.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:26:26 PM

    Like immediately following this this crash. It might not seem like that now.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:26:32 PM

    But think about like how far we've come since, let's say, 2017.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:27:04 PM

    Right. So there's lots of resilience protocols in crypto, many layer ones with tons of users and activity. I think centralized exchanges, you know with the exception of FTX, I think there's many that have practices and user experience that are significantly above the than what we could see many years ago. So I don't think we need you know a backstop or a lender of last resort. We just need to keep iterating and build stronger and stronger systems until like Marcus don't need.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:27:06 PM

    To feel panicked.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:27:09 PM

    At the slightest hint of provocation.

    stablekwon
  • coinage_media01:27:21 PM

    But, but that does seem like it. It doesn't always happen that way, right? I mean, I feel like that was something that even with the reserves that were in place, of course everyone knew exactly how much LG had in the case of Luna.

    coinage_media
  • coinage_media01:27:53 PM

    We know that that backstop was eventually going to be all used up and that panic was kind of inherently a piece of that system. And we're seeing it play out regardless of what centralized player it is now. I mean, it does seem like that's just inherent behavior and we talk about greed and maybe potential decisions that were made here in this case to kind of roll the dice and try and plug a hole that may have been created using, again, allegedly customer funds. I mean, I wonder if if if greed is

    coinage_media
  • coinage_media01:27:59 PM

    Either if there is maybe a solution that's that's different than a backstop if that's not the way forward.

    coinage_media
  • stablekwon01:28:01 PM

    Well, so.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:28:05 PM

    I I think.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:28:11 PM

    I so I I think in terms of like centralized exchanges and DFI protocols.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:28:15 PM

    They are going to find different pathways to resilience.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:28:23 PM

    So I think for centralized platforms, I think they're going to be in almost every country in the world, very tightly regulated.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:28:32 PM

    So in most brokerages like customer, funds are expected to be kept in segregated, you know, legal structures and bank accounts.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:28:36 PM

    And I think similar things are going to start to happen to most changes across the world.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:28:53 PM

    But even without it, I feel like this is sort of like a wake wake up call. As I said before, at least in the short to midterm for people to not dip into user funds and to adopt those types of practices. I also think a lot of the funds will move to external custodian. So the role between.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:29:25 PM

    So like over the last couple of years, we've seen exchanges like evolve into serving seven different roles at once, you know, Venture Capital, Clearinghouse, brokerage, custodian and so on and so forth. So I think you're going to see more and more exchanges, you know, focus on their core function of offering open markets, markets that are open 24/7 and then just taking a fee from those trades and then I think the role of the custodian and other things are going to be.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:29:29 PM

    Um, you know, sort of delegated to.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:29:34 PM

    You know, professional custodians like Anchorage or Queen based custody and so on and so forth.

    stablekwon
  • coinage_media01:30:05 PM

    Yeah, the regulation piece is pretty interesting because I don't point out it was obviously anyone who's in the space knows that it was a wild kind of stretch of of seven days there. When it comes to even the the backlash that we saw around SF position in the debate with Eric Voorhees and you know what bank list put out, shout out to them in regards to the fact that Sam had been actively kind of pushing for regulations that a lot of people in crypto saw as anti defy and kind of against the ethos

    coinage_media
  • coinage_media01:30:13 PM

    Um, you know, I mean when you talk about this, I wonder what your take is and obviously you've you've been pretty vocal about the case that.

    coinage_media
  • coinage_media01:30:42 PM

    US regulations are not the end all be all when it comes to crypto. But as someone who's watched it play out, I'd be curious to get your take on maybe how you received the last seven days in the context of Sam being so active in trying to push for regulations that you know, again maybe weren't so friendly to define what that means as far as regulators around the world might consider in being a lot less friendly towards where crypto goes in, you know, the rest of the year and next year and beyond.

    coinage_media
  • stablekwon01:30:46 PM

    Uh.

    stablekwon
  • coinage_media01:31:01 PM

    If I can shorten that question too, it might be which one you think is worse for the industry. We talked about the pains that came from Terrace collapse and how that might have set back D5, but you could equally make the case.

    coinage_media
  • coinage_media01:31:11 PM

    That FTX now collapsing. Maybe he undoes some of the damage that Luna did to the ecosystem. I I don't know how you think about things like that and if it is kind of a 0 sum game.

    coinage_media
  • stablekwon01:31:18 PM

    Well, so I I think.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:31:26 PM

    So I don't think there's going to be fine-tuned distinctions between, you know, centralized exchanges and Phi.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:31:34 PM

    I think there's just going to be more firepower and resources and priorities given to regulators that are just looking at crypto in general.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:31:42 PM

    Right. So whatever is part of the, you know regulatory dialogue in terms of?

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:31:46 PM

    Oh, the industry doesn't like this, but we think it's going to make things safer.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:31:57 PM

    Is probably going to be, you know, the predominant narrative in regulatory circles going forward, like looking at the crashes that happened earlier this year.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:32:10 PM

    But I think the distinction I but I think one of the things that people don't appreciate about DFI is like if it's truly defi, it's not really possible to regulate it. As in like it shouldn't be possible to shut it down.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:32:26 PM

    So for instance, like with Tara, like one of the things that I believed is like even if they were able to, you know, find me or to, you know, get me to shut it down in some way, I just wouldn't be able to.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:32:48 PM

    I think you know similar arguments could be made for a lot of the default leading D5 protocols on lots of different chains, like as in like you could come after the creator, but at the same time, if that D5 protocol already has users and it's useful, then I I think it's possible to blunt its growth.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:32:51 PM

    But it shouldn't be possible to shut it down entirely.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:32:56 PM

    And I think Tornado Cash is probably a shining example of this.

    stablekwon
  • coinage_media01:33:28 PM

    Yeah, that was one of the questions that you know as a community based show, there are chances for us to bring in questions from our community and one of the owners of our NFT is actually Chad Bareford who is at Thor Chain, another one of those decentralized projects that allows permissionless swaps. Eric Voorhees of course a big Thor chain proponent when it comes to you being able to trade and switch cryptocurrencies without being KYC seed forward chain is also the back end of what power is sha

    coinage_media
  • coinage_media01:33:52 PM

    But a lot of people, I guess, have been watching this all play out and, you know, you've addressed another shows the idea of being on the run, not being on the run, and now what's played out with FTX and things like that. Well, also, you know, the Co creator of Tornado cache, you know, is facing jail time and still apprehended. I mean, I wonder how you look at that when it comes to.

    coinage_media
  • coinage_media01:34:06 PM

    Quote UN quote justice in the crypto space, the way that these things are prosecuted, the way that people who are attached to these projects are prosecuted and kind of I guess what's real in the way that some of these projects as you said.

    coinage_media
  • coinage_media01:34:10 PM

    Can basically be set up in a way that can't be stopped.

    coinage_media
  • coinage_media01:34:17 PM

    That's that's basically one of the most popular questions that our community has posed and people on Twitter have posed is.

    coinage_media
  • coinage_media01:34:26 PM

    Alright is what kind of legal problems is SPF in duquan? And then contrasting that with the fact that the cofounder of Tornado Cache is apprehended.

    coinage_media
  • stablekwon01:34:37 PM

    Well, so I I think one of the things, OK, so like in the media, especially traditional media, I see lots of comments about me being in the run.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:34:38 PM

    But.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:34:41 PM

    Just because I don't tell the media.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:34:46 PM

    Where I am or where I live?

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:34:52 PM

    I mean so like it was one of the things was very confusing to me was like a reporter sent me a snippet.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:35:02 PM

    Of a vigilante group being formed to like come see me and attack me, and then like this person asked me the question where are you?

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:35:03 PM

    And I'm like.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:35:10 PM

    Wait, like, I, I, I get it. So I, I, I would understand if you were asking me separately where I am.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:35:21 PM

    But like, you send me a snippet of a bunch of people, like threatening to attack me and then ask me where I am. Like, I just like I. So I mean like in short.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:35:29 PM

    It's. I mean, just because I don't share with the media and the wider public where I might happen to be, that doesn't mean.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:35:47 PM

    That I'm on the run, right? So like I I live a regular life and any regulator that's interested enough to ask me. But this is quite serious, by the way. Like if you ask me and you have like if you're a government official, I would tell you.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:35:50 PM

    Right, but it wouldn't be responsible.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:36:03 PM

    To my family during a time like this, to, you know, let's say respond to a question on the Wall Street Journal or something like that and just to broadcast my address or like where it might happen to be so, so to make it easier.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:36:05 PM

    Um.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:36:08 PM

    For people to pose a threat to my family safety.

    stablekwon
  • coinage_media01:36:11 PM

    I mean, that seems.

    coinage_media
  • stablekwon01:36:12 PM

    Maybe that wasn't the question.

    stablekwon
  • coinage_media01:36:25 PM

    I mean that that wasn't necessarily the question. I think the question was technically around, you know, the the Co creator of Tornado Cash and devs on Tornado cache in this case being prosecuted.

    coinage_media
  • coinage_media01:36:30 PM

    Or kind of those D5 projects as you mentioned, the ones that can't be shut down.

    coinage_media
  • coinage_media01:36:43 PM

    I think people may be questioning whether or not anything will happen when it comes to the investigations into FTX. Of course the historical precedent with the a collapse is no, but obviously crypto is a different piece.

    coinage_media
  • coinage_media01:36:54 PM

    One of the questions that I was curious and this is just a simple one is if you if you haven't talked to Sam if in the Terra collapse he was one of the people that you turned to.

    coinage_media
  • coinage_media01:36:57 PM

    When terror was going through issues.

    coinage_media
  • stablekwon01:37:02 PM

    So I.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:37:07 PM

    So I I didn't speak to Sam.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:37:14 PM

    Directly. But we were so, so for context, for people in the group that might not know.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:37:23 PM

    But so, so we were putting together sort of an emergency funding rounds during the JPEG events.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:37:28 PM

    To bring in additional exogenous capital to further protect the peg.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:37:39 PM

    So that round was, I think, was doing pretty well. We had filled a lot of the book and then it started to fall apart when the price of Luna just cratered.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:37:45 PM

    Uh, because there wasn't enough Luna to sell to be able to raise enough money at that point?

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:37:55 PM

    But yeah, but we we didn't speak to Sam directly. Someone in our group that was in the war rooms, I think spoke to Caroline.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:38:00 PM

    Yeah.

    stablekwon
  • coinage_media01:38:00 PM

    Really. What was that conversation?

    coinage_media
  • stablekwon01:38:03 PM

    Uh.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:38:08 PM

    I mean so I didn't have that conversation directly so.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:38:16 PM

    I'm not sure, but it was basically, you know, fairly positive. So if you guys manage to fill out the book, we'll take.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:38:20 PM

    I don't know what the number was, maybe 700 million out of the round.

    stablekwon
  • coinage_media01:38:33 PM

    Got it. So it was at that point, I suppose when you reached out or when someone in your team reached out for support that was that was there at least 700 million in support for what you were trying to do at the time?

    coinage_media
  • stablekwon01:38:35 PM

    If you fill the rest of the book.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:38:39 PM

    Yeah.

    stablekwon
  • coinage_media01:38:43 PM

    Got it. Contingent on that. I mean, I think that's one of the things that people are trying to figure out in this, right? Again, all this stuff plays out in public.

    coinage_media
  • coinage_media01:39:15 PM

    And we talked about it at the open and of course if anyone just joining us right now, this whole conversation is around the parallels between the collapses we've seen and I guess the differences between the collapses we've seen in 2022 in crypto and it comes to centralized institutions like an FTX and decentralized projects like Tara. And that is why we have duquan on here to kind of discuss all this and and what it's like to see these things first hand in the war room. And don't I mean I I gues

    coinage_media
  • coinage_media01:39:24 PM

    Would have been there for support when you guys needed it. But I mean, you've seen the back and forth between CZ and SF on Twitter and kind of how we got here.

    coinage_media
  • coinage_media01:39:41 PM

    I mean, what do you make of, I guess, the game theory as a Binance again, CZ and SF have been going at it for the last few weeks. What you think of, I guess, kind of these centralized beings in crypto and whether or not that was kind of, I guess, core to what we saw in FTX's collapse?

    coinage_media
  • stablekwon01:39:56 PM

    So when you say the interaction with CD, like if you're referring to whether like his comments had a material impact on the downfall of FX, I would say no.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:39:59 PM

    Is in like if it wasn't now.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:40:01 PM

    I think.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:40:07 PM

    Something would have happened later, so and if something's going to crash.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:40:09 PM

    Will happen earlier rather than later.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:40:22 PM

    So I so from from that perspective, I think the downfall of that TX was all them, like it was their own downfall. I don't think other parties are responsible for what happened there.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:40:26 PM

    If you're referring to like the acquisition offer.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:40:31 PM

    Uh, I mean, it's a pretty big hole, man. So like.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:40:41 PM

    Good for binance. Like why would they spend $10 billion trying to bail out FTX when likely most most of their users aren't coming back?

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:40:43 PM

    That was like a smaller hole.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:40:49 PM

    I don't know, maybe low 9 figures or something like that. They probably could have helped.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:40:52 PM

    But like I just.

    stablekwon
  • coinage_media01:40:52 PM

    But I guess, I guess that's, that's.

    coinage_media
  • coinage_media01:41:01 PM

    That's kind of, I guess, at the core of what's played out because, you know, SBF had been asked repeatedly by every news organization, he went on. And he does do a lot of interviews.

    coinage_media
  • coinage_media01:41:23 PM

    Like a lot of interviews, but if you look at those, he's talked about kind of that they weren't deals he really wanted to make the block by deal, the Voyager deal stepping into I guess save the broader ecosystem. We're not deals and he wanted to make and I wonder if you watch those and I guess the way that seez kind of stepped in and then backed out, if there is any sort of take on your side around?

    coinage_media
  • coinage_media01:41:46 PM

    You know if there is such a thing as a white knight in crypto to kind of step in like that. And if you think maybe FT X was overextending itself because they thought, and again, this would be, you know, maybe reading too much into it since no one really knows. But if the thought was there that maybe the system as a whole could collapse if a decision like the one SBF made wasn't made at the time.

    coinage_media
  • stablekwon01:41:54 PM

    So I mean obviously I don't know, but.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:42:04 PM

    I think one of the things that I thought was curious with at least the block by bail out was that the bailout came in the form of a revolving credit.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:42:08 PM

    So as in like in order to do.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:42:15 PM

    The acquisition like the main term that FX was offering was the revolving credit, so.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:42:28 PM

    They didn't actually have to, you know, wire that money immediately, right? And nor did they like in their books. It doesn't actually count as a liability, right? It only does that when Blockfi actually accesses that credit.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:42:37 PM

    Lots of people going through the terms and looking at how difficult it is for block 5 to get access to that credit if FDX doesn't want to give it out.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:42:43 PM

    So I mean I think one of the motivation could have been like.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:42:45 PM

    You know, preventing.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:42:59 PM

    Block 5 from going down and then distressing the assets that are currently in FX's books while at the same time like if you sort of absorb blockfi as a subsidiary, you get access to.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:43:06 PM

    They're currently liquid assets, right, which is probably going to be in like Bitcoin and eat and stable coins?

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:43:27 PM

    But I find it hard to believe that people would overstretch themselves for an altruistic motive. I mean, like, Sam is obviously not an idiot, right? So he like, there's no way that he, he took, took a look at his balance sheet and say, hey, look, we're like a billion dollars away from going insolvent, but we're going to buy.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:43:37 PM

    You know, this failing exchange for like 1 1/2 billion dollars because I just want to be cryptos, white knight. I I don't think like motivation like that was going through his head.

    stablekwon
  • coinage_media01:44:09 PM

    I think that that for me personally is one of the interesting points when you compare, I guess the public reaction to terrorism collapse and people said the same thing about you is does not an idiot. So this probably couldn't have just happened because he didn't see the risk coming. And you and I talked about that back earlier this year right after the collapse as well. So again, I'll just play this quick clip from our interview just because I think again it's it's very similar to the way that y

    coinage_media
  • coinage_media01:44:19 PM

    I'll just play what you said back then when I asked you about again where you were mentally around some of the risks before the Terra collapse happened, and then get your reaction on the other side.

    coinage_media
  • coinage_media01:44:50 PM

    Back they seem super irrational, but you gotta put yourself in the shoes of a founder and the ecosystem is inching close to $100 billion. If you've had a series of wins and you get to that scale, then like, you almost don't think that you could fail. I mean, I think a lot of people would say the same thing about SBF and FTX, just in terms of, again, this, the level that he had reached and maybe the risks of failure.

    coinage_media
  • coinage_media01:44:51 PM

    Being overlooked.

    coinage_media
  • coinage_media01:44:55 PM

    For sure.

    coinage_media
  • stablekwon01:44:56 PM

    Well, so I I wanna draw an important distinction. So as in.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:44:57 PM

    Umm.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:45:05 PM

    Like in terms of managing TfL, we were actually pretty conservative with our finances in the sense that like.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:45:12 PM

    Despite, and I'm not talking about the Terra ecosystem, but Terraform Labs itself got fairly large at one point.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:45:15 PM

    But we didn't deploy like.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:45:25 PM

    Massive ecosystem funds out of our balance sheet to be able to fund projects out of the venture deals that were being offered like most of the most of the checks that we cut were.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:45:46 PM

    Somewhere between like $20,000 to you know a few $100,000. So we were generally fairly conservative with the things that we were doing. So like when I when I talk about like I don't, I don't think Sam would have made the mistake of investing like that like if Tara was a company.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:45:51 PM

    And I don't think I would have made the same choices, and I don't think any sane person would.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:46:07 PM

    Right. But like the Terry ecosystem wasn't something that I owned, right? Like as in like when user spot UST, they weren't buying it from me, right? When people were putting UST into anchor, they were lending it out to other people that wanted to borrow that UST, it didn't come into my pocket.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:46:11 PM

    For that perspective like.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:46:22 PM

    I like when I talked about like Sam not being stupid. It's just that it's very easy from a centralized company's perspective to be able to add numbers and to realize when the number goes negative in the balance sheet.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:46:33 PM

    It's very different when you're observing like a stable point ecosystem that you, that you, that you've created. I, I, I don't, I don't think the complexity is equal.

    stablekwon
  • coinage_media01:46:41 PM

    Understood. That makes sense. I mean, when we think about how much Sam knew and how much those around him also need, that's another, I guess, similar question.

    coinage_media
  • coinage_media01:46:53 PM

    And it's one of the questions from one of the people in our ownership community service seals, who's on the spaces, just kind of weighing in on the question of whether or not you believe that stuff and those around him then.

    coinage_media
  • coinage_media01:47:24 PM

    Also knew the trouble that Alameda and FTX were in, right? When it comes to I guess publicly stating days before the collapse that user funds will be fine. Don't rush for the exits. And you know, I think back to steady lads and kind of again, it's all tied into panic. And the Fed I think is no different, right? It's all about kind of trying to signal one thing and shift to another. So you know, the public is always a step behind and obviously there's reasons for that. But what do you think about

    coinage_media
  • coinage_media01:47:38 PM

    What everyone inside either FTX or Alameda new when it comes to those things, when it comes to presenting, everything's going to be fine to the end user and now having, I don't know the number, but a bunch of users around the globe now stuck.

    coinage_media
  • stablekwon01:47:51 PM

    I mean that that's kind of really hard to speculate, right? So like without having insider knowledge?

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:47:55 PM

    So I so Sam ever told his employees where he didn't?

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:47:56 PM

    But.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:48:02 PM

    And like, it's really hard to say one way or the other unless you were there in person.

    stablekwon
  • coinage_media01:48:20 PM

    But I mean just kind of more broadly, right, from a philosophical standpoint of a founder trying to defend a project. And you know, we discussed this in terms of the public positioning of projects when they are on the brink, how it doesn't help to say things are as bad as they are.

    coinage_media
  • coinage_media01:48:31 PM

    What you make of that when it comes to panic in the crypto space without a backstop and kind of how it again puts pressure on a founder to maybe not present things.

    coinage_media
  • coinage_media01:48:34 PM

    In reality.

    coinage_media
  • stablekwon01:48:40 PM

    So I I don't think panics in in most circumstances are as bad of a thing as.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:48:46 PM

    Like so. I mean, I don't think panics are a problem. It's the resulting devastation.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:48:49 PM

    Right, so.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:48:51 PM

    Like.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:49:00 PM

    If we truly bind to the premise that we're early in crypto, then like panics are just going to happen, right? It's it's just natural, like ecosystem.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:49:05 PM

    Isn't as mature as the massive valuations that its companies and protocols are getting.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:49:08 PM

    So from that perspective.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:49:16 PM

    Like, once we accept that, there's going to be some panic, right? That there's going to be a lot of failures and things like that in crypto?

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:49:24 PM

    Then in that case, like the only thing that you have to worry about from the perspective of a founding team is whether there's going to be devastation at the end.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:49:30 PM

    At. Does that make sense? So if you're asking the question of whether like.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:49:40 PM

    You know SPF shared the information of the crisis you know with this team then.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:49:46 PM

    I don't know. Like I think the panic itself would have been OK like I think the problem was that the money wasn't there.

    stablekwon
  • coinage_media01:49:49 PM

    Well.

    coinage_media
  • stablekwon01:49:50 PM

    Right. If the question is whether, yeah, go ahead.

    stablekwon
  • coinage_media01:50:22 PM

    I mean, I think part of the question is whether or not any of this is fair than the old system, right. When we think about the old system, a lot of people in crypto generally come to the space because they think it's more fair, more transparent. This is the reason why we shifted to this system over the old one. There are no bailouts. There are no inside deals, there are no inside information that kind of gets out ahead of time. And I think a lot of people continue to wake up to the fact that may

    coinage_media
  • coinage_media01:50:31 PM

    And when it comes to founders again trying to defend these things, obviously they're not going to be the ones who might present something to their communities. That is the nail in the coffin.

    coinage_media
  • coinage_media01:50:48 PM

    But I think the pressure is more so there when there is no potential bailout or you know, FDIC insurance may be presenting some of the stopgaps to that panic. And then the question is if it's right for those founders to maybe stretch the truth or not be as honest with those facts.

    coinage_media
  • stablekwon01:50:55 PM

    Uh, no, I I mean.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:51:17 PM

    I mean, it's hard to say, right? So because like if you're asking a hypothetical question of what is the right thing to do after you've already, you know, dipped into customer funds and you don't have the money as promised, then I think at that point like discussing what is right and wrong.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:51:20 PM

    Is already too late at that point.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:51:24 PM

    I know, of course, like coming forward with.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:51:27 PM

    You know.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:51:36 PM

    Whatever happens sooner is better than later, but I like like if FX like dipped into user funds by lending it out to Alameda, then the true crime happened without lending happened.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:51:45 PM

    So I don't know if it really makes a difference from like a morality perspective in terms of like.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:51:54 PM

    Like how that is communicated? I mean I guess it does make a difference, but like not really cause the crimes already occurred.

    stablekwon
  • coinage_media01:52:03 PM

    Yeah, I think even as we discussed kind of earlier on, obviously there's, there's a lot of moving pieces in all of these things.

    coinage_media
  • coinage_media01:52:35 PM

    But again, it's part of the problem when we talk about transparency is that like a lot of this stuff, maybe particularly when it comes to centralized institutions, not as open and transparent as it could be. Wanted to also budget time for maybe other questions that might be out there in the community. But you know, I wonder too if there's anything just you having watched it beyond I guess, the right or wrong decisions at play here, but just kind of your reactions maybe to, again, I think you and

    coinage_media
  • coinage_media01:52:45 PM

    The terror collapse happened and played out in a short span of time, but whether or not you're at all surprised about how quickly all of this has unraveled that FTX as you've watched it for the last week.

    coinage_media
  • stablekwon01:53:04 PM

    So I mean having gone through something unbelievable myself and then having, you know.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:53:16 PM

    You know, having seen the pair ecosystem get to a really large scale and then, you know, collapse in a matter of days, I I I didn't think anything could surprise me about that point.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:53:37 PM

    At the same time, like I was, you know, pretty surprised at how fast you know, Sam went from saying like all funds are safe and we don't even invest in treasuries to two days later having to delete those tweets and, you know, everything having to go down in flames and like I think today, like he was.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:53:50 PM

    I almost think he might have been hacked because, you know, he was sending out those tweets, like sending those capital characters like WHA and then like you and I were talking about this in DM's and I was saying, you know, if he says.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:53:51 PM

    Umm.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:53:53 PM

    Like.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:54:02 PM

    You know, at at that point, like the alphabet was that AHA. And then I said if he says have fun staying poor, I'm leaving crypto.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:54:04 PM

    Umm.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:54:13 PM

    So yeah, I mean just just like the like the public meltdown and you know watching that from like a third party bystanders perspective was.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:54:21 PM

    You know, I I didn't think that would happen. I, you know, out of all the different institutions and crypto, I thought.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:54:26 PM

    FTX would probably be, you know, the least likely to go down.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:54:28 PM

    It is what it is.

    stablekwon
  • coinage_media01:54:51 PM

    It has been a year of surprises, I think constantly. It's, it's a humbling game, Crypton. I think everyone's learning that as far as I guess the unexpected occurring and again people getting caught in the crossfire. I wonder as someone who's championed kind of a decentralized project, again kind of being the decentralized money that's driving the decentralized economy before it collapsed as you as you phrased it.

    coinage_media
  • coinage_media01:55:18 PM

    I'd be curious to get your take on maybe some of the centralization risks that are now being presented when it comes to our FX goes down. Does that mean it's a problem that Binance becomes the dominant player in this space? And again, if it's just the one on ramp in town, not belittling cracking or Coinbase at all, but I'm curious if if you've maybe thought about the centralization risks when it comes to crypto as a whole, if finances power does grow as a result of this or if that doesn't matter

    coinage_media
  • stablekwon01:55:21 PM

    Umm.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:55:30 PM

    Well, I think other players are going to step in and Binance this like to fill FTX's market share.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:55:38 PM

    Right. And one of the reasons why Binance is so popular is yes it is a great product. Like if you use Binance it works really well.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:55:47 PM

    But there are things that you know it, it doesn't do where it can't do. So for instance, like I I don't know what its ranking is at now but.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:55:52 PM

    Through a lot of its history, updating Korea, for instance, you know.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:55:59 PM

    I think at one point it was doing more volume than anyone else in 2017. I think even still today it's probably.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:56:00 PM

    Like #4.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:56:03 PM

    There's #3 in terms of volume.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:56:19 PM

    So there's you know rationalities and you know differences in product offerings led need to pop up as a result of it's it's very hard to run something that is massive at scale across the entire world and it's not, it's definitely not a winner take all type of market.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:56:29 PM

    Right. And I think overtime as these operations get more complex either through you know compliance needs or just like the damn need to keep customer funds safe.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:57:02 PM

    I think exchanges would would be forced to focus on, on narrower set of roles and a narrower set of product offerings in order to, you know, continue to be successful at what they do. I think what that means is that not only will the stack be, you know, vertically separated, so there's going to be custodians that offer custody services independent of exchanges. There's going to be, you know, you know, different clearing houses for OTC desks that exchanges don't run directly. And I think we're al

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:57:07 PM

    With, you know, shops like QCP and Wintermute getting market share.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:57:10 PM

    And and you know Cumberland GSR and so on and so forth.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:57:20 PM

    And then I think exchanges would be forced to focus on a narrow set of things and I think they will have to pick and choose in which geographies and which product offerings that they compete in.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:57:28 PM

    So I think there's always going to be plenty of opportunity and you know, like the exchange space itself is always going to be competitive.

    stablekwon
  • coinage_media01:57:38 PM

    Overall though, I mean, I guess I've asked this question a little bit earlier, but I I mean when it comes to trust in crypto, right, as as an industry that's kind of built on.

    coinage_media
  • coinage_media01:57:48 PM

    Distrusting everyone and every player around centralized exchanges and even project founders, as the case may be.

    coinage_media
  • coinage_media01:57:56 PM

    When it comes to that, I mean how much do you think writ large this does to kind of unwind the adoption cycle that was there prior?

    coinage_media
  • coinage_media01:58:01 PM

    To all of these collapses, and whether or not there's any uniqueness in.

    coinage_media
  • coinage_media01:58:18 PM

    The largest example right for terror is the largest decentralized stable coin when it collapsed and now FT X being one of the largest global centralized exchanges going down if you think there is any additional detriment to the movement now.

    coinage_media
  • stablekwon01:58:23 PM

    So.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:58:37 PM

    I mean, I think assuming finance is safe, I don't think there's anything that can fail at at at a similar scale. Finance and Coinbase is safe, then I don't think there's anything that can fail at a similar scale.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:58:39 PM

    So.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:58:44 PM

    And like, you know, like if you're talking about like.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:58:50 PM

    Cryptocurrencies in general. I think the market has been surprisingly resilient to all of this.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:58:51 PM

    So.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:58:58 PM

    I I do think that there might be you know further contagion effects with different.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:59:18 PM

    You know, exchanges or you know, especially a lot of funds that had money in FTX like winding down. I I think some of them are starting to become, you know, announced this publicly now. So I, I, I, I do think that's going to have contagion effects, but I don't think there's anything at a similar scale that's going to fail like.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:59:23 PM

    Like in the, in the, in the media to short term of course, like, you know, a few months down the line.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon01:59:25 PM

    Anything's on the table.

    stablekwon
  • coinage_media01:59:57 PM

    Well, you and I have kind of discussed this, you know, over the months since Terra's collapse and you personally kind of rebuilding trust in this space. You know, obviously you did the interview with us Quench dot Media, which everyone can go watch. That kind of dives into your experience and what you knew at the time. But now we're dealing with something that's that's occurred, you know, months since that interview. And I wonder if you've had time to reflect about your own personal journey when

    coinage_media
  • coinage_media02:00:28 PM

    Place you may be angry with the idea of of us even chatting with you. Of course, coinage is a crypto a community owned show. So we're following the direction of what our NFT holders say and what they want. And I think again as a journalist covering the space, I think there's a lot to be learned from people who are in the arena trying to solve these problems and with each problem, you know, each solution to the problem. There are maybe potential complexities and other problems they might create t

    coinage_media
  • coinage_media02:00:47 PM

    Attorney of this. All right, right. Dequan, whether or not you feel like this, maybe I don't want to use the word absolves, but where do you think your trust in the community stands now? And kind of, I guess this constant debate between decentralization, centralization, good and bad, all of these things as it's played out in the public eye.

    coinage_media
  • stablekwon02:01:02 PM

    So I I think.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:01:09 PM

    I I think it's hard to say but I I think overall like.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:01:14 PM

    I don't think I ever want to be in a position where like.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:01:25 PM

    People trust me or like so I I don't think I ever want to get to that same level of attention and and spotlight.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:01:31 PM

    Again, it's incredibly stressful. Like not only when things go down, but honestly.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:01:36 PM

    I got really unhealthy throughout 2021.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:01:41 PM

    It's a lot of pressure, right? Even when things are going up and.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:01:47 PM

    You know, people start recognizing you on the street and you know, like your life gets picked apart and things like that.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:01:52 PM

    Um, and now obviously, I think for different reasons.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:01:55 PM

    Things have been stressful, but.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:02:04 PM

    You know, to some extent, like I've really enjoyed at least the last few weeks because like one of the things that I realized is.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:02:11 PM

    You know, I did a little bit of self reflection and during 2021 I don't think I really did anything that productive.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:02:23 PM

    Like from the sense that like, I think what I most enjoyed doing is just, you know, coming up with ideas, tinkering with things and then to put something out to the world that is interesting.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:02:48 PM

    But if you look at my calendar on an average day in 2021, be it Saturday or during the week, the calendar was chopped up into like 1530 minute increments on back-to-back calls and meetings and things like that. A lot of which didn't have a specific agenda, right, just talking to, you know, other founders in the industry like be regulators or something like that. And a lot of those meetings would just be politicking.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:02:55 PM

    And I didn't really have any time to do the things that I actually like doing.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:02:56 PM

    So.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:03:00 PM

    I don't know, you know.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:03:06 PM

    That takes to build back reputation, you know, after a crash of this size.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:03:09 PM

    And I don't know if that's even possible.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:03:18 PM

    But like, at least you know what I've been able to gain throughout the last few months of introspection is.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:03:20 PM

    That like.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:03:22 PM

    Maybe.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:03:26 PM

    Maybe like having that type of attention just sucks.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:03:28 PM

    And.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:03:35 PM

    Like, I'm, I'm just, you know, kind of excited to, you know, work on things that I like and not worry too much about whether people are going to use it.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:03:43 PM

    Or, you know, things like that and just, you know, try to appreciate the process, which I haven't been able to do in a really long time.

    stablekwon
  • coinage_media02:03:51 PM

    I think this year has been unhealthy for a lot of people actually, and I wonder too on that point.

    coinage_media
  • coinage_media02:03:59 PM

    As you kind of navigated the fallout from everything, if there's any direct advice, and I don't think at least I don't see him in the space.

    coinage_media
  • coinage_media02:04:28 PM

    Uh, I don't know if SF is listening, though. You know, he is active, as we've all seen on Twitter. Still, I wonder if there's any advice. Again, as someone who's gone through this in the aftermath in and again, what you faced after the terror collapse, anything else that you would kind of, I guess, point to as advice to someone in his seat now, again, as you said, trying to rebuild trust. And I think it's way too early for that since even questions haven't been answered right now. Any advice to

    coinage_media
  • stablekwon02:04:44 PM

    So once again, I I want to stress that I think what we went through is a little different. So from my perspective, the differences seem larger than the similarities, but I but I see where you're coming from.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:04:45 PM

    So.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:04:49 PM

    If I had to offer a word of advice to Sam.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:04:51 PM

    It's.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:05:00 PM

    I mean, I think the most important thing is to think about, you know, like.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:05:06 PM

    Think about like the influence and the reparations that you can make in terms of a circle.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:05:14 PM

    So focus on the things that are close to you and then try to ripple out as far as possible. So it's in.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:05:21 PM

    I I think what's kind of happening now, if his Twitter account hasn't been hacked, is he's breaking down mentally a little bit.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:05:25 PM

    So I think now more than ever, he needs to hold his shit together.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:05:26 PM

    And then?

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:05:32 PM

    Just, you know, try to do undo as much of the damage as possible.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:05:40 PM

    And then I think the next line that he needs to focus on is to make sure that all the employees that FPX and Alameda.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:05:45 PM

    Or, you know, pull the truth and then they're able to.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:05:48 PM

    Transition and move on.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:05:50 PM

    In the best way possible.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:05:56 PM

    And then after that like comes to partners of Alameda and FTX and all the users that they had.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:05:58 PM

    And the investors?

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:06:04 PM

    Then after that, I think it's the public, be it, you know, law enforcement or.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:06:08 PM

    Um, you know, just the average person on crypto Twitter.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:06:21 PM

    But I think trying to focus on the problems that you can solve one at a time, but making sure that you just, you know, hold it together and make sure that you continually work on solving these problems is really important.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:06:24 PM

    But it can't happen if you've gone crazy.

    stablekwon
  • coinage_media02:06:56 PM

    I think, yeah, I think, I mean, uh, you you mentioned in our interview you didn't eat for or sleep for a few days when all this is going on. I think anyone watching the debate between Eric and and SPF may have noticed somethings and again no one really knows entirely what happened in the run up and everything that was going on. Again we saw the back and forth between him and CZ on on Twitter. But I think anyone watching may have noticed differences in terms of his prior public appearances and I

    coinage_media
  • coinage_media02:07:27 PM

    Some of those mental issues and I guess the weight of it when you're trying to salvage that and it sounds like, you know, it's weird to think about the parallels of you talking or someone on your team talking to Alameda and then I assume them also reaching out to everybody else as we saw the reports for billions of dollars of rescue funds. What kind of weight that also might entail? I mean, as someone who's been in that position, you've talked about maybe some of the issues around it and kind of

    coinage_media
  • coinage_media02:07:34 PM

    Kind of talk about SF in the way that no one knows what it's like to be in that position, but obviously not good decisions were made.

    coinage_media
  • coinage_media02:07:53 PM

    Your thoughts, I suppose I'm kind of how that all plays out when it comes to actually having to do those, have to make those calls in that war room when things, as you said, you almost had a deal on the table to salvage terror at least at the time being and then to have it all kind of slip away. What that's like and whether or not you think you've heard.

    coinage_media
  • coinage_media02:08:00 PM

    Whether you've heard from anybody else who is kind of watching all play out, whether or not that was even the case around the Alameda and FTX situation.

    coinage_media
  • stablekwon02:08:13 PM

    I I so like the the only information that I have on the FX and media situation is just like random people dming me with.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:08:16 PM

    Elicited insights and.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:08:21 PM

    And what I see on Twitter and reading the news so.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:08:25 PM

    I I don't know, like how the fundraising played out.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:08:31 PM

    I do agree that it it would have been stressful and then for Sam to go to CZ.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:08:37 PM

    After their very public battle must have been hard, but at the same time like.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:08:42 PM

    Yeah, I mean, what is that stress and hardship compared to?

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:08:48 PM

    Like, just like the horror of, you know, 5 million people not being able to access their funds.

    stablekwon
  • coinage_media02:09:04 PM

    Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, there have been countless other people having to deal with that right now and I feel like it just sucks as an industry to continue to watch it and the cascading impacts of it all as it goes from one centralized exchange to the other.

    coinage_media
  • coinage_media02:09:15 PM

    You know and again looking back at the target situation as well as we all kind of lived through and talked about again, no need to necessarily rehash all of that as we've already covered it.

    coinage_media
  • coinage_media02:09:21 PM

    As an outlet, I do wanna ask seals who's up here, another member of the Cornish community.

    coinage_media
  • coinage_media02:09:28 PM

    These kind of watch this all play out himself as well if you wanted to ask a question up here.

    coinage_media
  • coinage_media02:09:31 PM

    Seals.

    coinage_media
  • officialsirguy02:09:33 PM

    Hey, what's going on? What's going on, guys? Can you hear me?

    officialsirguy
  • coinage_media02:09:34 PM

    Yep.

    coinage_media
  • officialsirguy02:09:44 PM

    Uh, well, First off, uh, thanks for having me on, Zach. You're you're the goat leading the the truth behind the industry, and I really appreciate you having me on.

    officialsirguy
  • officialsirguy02:09:53 PM

    So quans, great to hear from you again. I'm glad you're safe and doing well. One of my questions was.

    officialsirguy
  • officialsirguy02:09:58 PM

    Considering everything that's happened, you know, in the macro economy.

    officialsirguy
  • officialsirguy02:10:01 PM

    Is it possible that?

    officialsirguy
  • officialsirguy02:10:13 PM

    Maybe most founders saw this coming when going to lenders or basically receiving most of the large money and funding coming through the normal, you know?

    officialsirguy
  • officialsirguy02:10:16 PM

    Economic system or you?

    officialsirguy
  • officialsirguy02:10:25 PM

    Ever worried with Luna or do you think this could have been the case, especially for SBF where he was dealing with a lot of?

    officialsirguy
  • officialsirguy02:10:27 PM

    You know, government.

    officialsirguy
  • officialsirguy02:10:32 PM

    Officials, he was dealing with a lot of legitimate companies and brands and and.

    officialsirguy
  • officialsirguy02:10:35 PM

    Is it possible that we're relying?

    officialsirguy
  • officialsirguy02:10:39 PM

    Basically still on that money to grow.

    officialsirguy
  • officialsirguy02:10:45 PM

    The ecosystem in crypto, and perhaps, maybe that's why CZ at the end of the day.

    officialsirguy
  • officialsirguy02:10:51 PM

    Ended up winning because maybe he has more actual decentralized money.

    officialsirguy
  • stablekwon02:10:56 PM

    You mean he has more money, right?

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:10:59 PM

    Like he has more crypto.

    stablekwon
  • officialsirguy02:11:03 PM

    Yeah. I mean, I mean, they're balance. Yeah. No, I mean, yeah, they're balance sheet, yeah.

    officialsirguy
  • officialsirguy02:11:05 PM

    Crypto.

    officialsirguy
  • coinage_media02:11:08 PM

    Size.

    coinage_media
  • stablekwon02:11:15 PM

    Well, I mean like I don't, I wouldn't characterize, yeah, I wouldn't characterize what happened here is like CZ winning over SF or anything like that. I I think CZ just.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:11:20 PM

    You know they're OK because he didn't do anything funny with his money.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:11:29 PM

    Right. And I think it's, you know, pretty much simple as that, right? If it was the opposite case where.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:11:38 PM

    You know, like hypothetically, if like C was overleveraged and Sam, you know, wasn't doing anything with his money, I think, you know, quote UN quote, Sam would have won.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:11:44 PM

    But I don't. I don't really think about this as like a conflict between C and Sam and you know.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:11:50 PM

    Whatever people are speculating about Alameda attacking US, I don't think it's like a conflict between.

    stablekwon
  • officialsirguy02:11:54 PM

    Yeah, no, I.

    officialsirguy
  • stablekwon02:11:55 PM

    You know, Terra versus anyone else, I think it just boils down to.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:11:57 PM

    Yeah, what is more resilient?

    stablekwon
  • officialsirguy02:11:57 PM

    Completely agree with you and.

    officialsirguy
  • officialsirguy02:12:06 PM

    Yeah. And that goes to my next question. Do you believe that there should be some sort of, well, this wouldn't be decentralized exactly, but in this time in our space.

    officialsirguy
  • officialsirguy02:12:20 PM

    Would you entertain the idea of having some sort of a I guess unofficial board to where these founders of the larger projects holding you know most of the volume of customers and and users?

    officialsirguy
  • officialsirguy02:12:30 PM

    To maybe, you know, get together and be a little closer because from my experience I've seen you know most of of you guys as founders are.

    officialsirguy
  • officialsirguy02:12:52 PM

    Pretty hard to reach most of the time. And I also don't know if you guys have good relationships, you know, speaking back to, obviously it's all speculation, but you know, with the CZ and FSF situation for example, you know Vitalijs hasn't really had much to say on the subject and it's.

    officialsirguy
  • officialsirguy02:13:01 PM

    Kind of concerning to see that most of the top players in the industry might not get along or maybe not being.

    officialsirguy
  • officialsirguy02:13:07 PM

    As transparent with each other as well, so I'd like to hear your take on that.

    officialsirguy
  • stablekwon02:13:16 PM

    Well, I think every relationship is different, but I would say that like crypto doesn't have a problem where like.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:13:24 PM

    It's like the founders of leading protocols and exchanges are are are not close to each other. I think it has the opposite problem.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:13:30 PM

    Where like they're too close to each other and there's information silos that form there.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:13:36 PM

    But just in general, like if you're asking whether like an official board of.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:13:42 PM

    You know, like the largest exchanges or protocols should be formed for consumer safety.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:13:51 PM

    I think some forms of that already exists, like so for instance. I think there's like the blockchain association in the US to.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:13:59 PM

    For like regulatory lobbying purposes, I think like a lot of the Imperium, the five founders are quite close.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:14:04 PM

    But I I I think just in general like.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:14:11 PM

    I I think things like this is like forms an opportunity to form different types of standards in the industry.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:14:24 PM

    Right. So for instance, I think it's pretty clear at this point that exchanges shouldn't custody their own funds, or at least there should be a better way of making sure that user deposits aren't touched.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:14:30 PM

    And, you know, I, I I think there's an argument to be made that.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:14:35 PM

    There should be better ways of.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:14:43 PM

    You know, preventing hacks or different types of monetary loss in the system, so it could be encapsulated in.

    stablekwon
  • officialsirguy02:14:56 PM

    Hmm.

    officialsirguy
  • stablekwon02:15:01 PM

    Let's say a a different token standard similar to the ERC 20. So I mean there's there's tons of lessons that we can take away from this and part of that should could be regulation, right? So like as in centralized exchanges should be regulated similar to traditional brokerages and I and I think.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:15:07 PM

    That, especially these days, is a reasonable outcome, if if not a better one.

    stablekwon
  • officialsirguy02:15:17 PM

    Yeah, I agree. I think, I think it has to start with, you know, basically keeping the same practice that the whole.

    officialsirguy
  • officialsirguy02:15:35 PM

    The whole world is used to and yeah, no, I appreciate you coming on and answering most of our questions. I guess my last one would be, are you speaking with anyone in the regulatory system in terms of, you know, perhaps being a?

    officialsirguy
  • officialsirguy02:15:46 PM

    Of help to fix it. Of giving your you know knowledge and kind of coding skills and and everything that they you've created.

    officialsirguy
  • officialsirguy02:15:49 PM

    Have you had any talks of that sort with any?

    officialsirguy
  • officialsirguy02:15:52 PM

    You know, officials or.

    officialsirguy
  • officialsirguy02:16:04 PM

    To become basically someone to prevent things that you know happened to you and are seemingly happening all across the crypto industry.

    officialsirguy
  • stablekwon02:16:11 PM

    Uh, yes, but.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:16:16 PM

    The conversations with regulators is, you know, as you could probably tell, mixed.

    stablekwon
  • officialsirguy02:16:17 PM

    Yeah.

    officialsirguy
  • stablekwon02:16:19 PM

    For for some of them.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:16:26 PM

    Like they they do reach out wanting to understand, like what happened and.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:16:32 PM

    Like what are the types of, you know, guardrails that they should put into place including doing nothing?

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:16:36 PM

    To make sure that users are kept safe.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:16:43 PM

    And in some cases it's honestly, as you can imagine, a little antagonistic. But.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:16:44 PM

    Umm.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:16:46 PM

    It that that is as it should be.

    stablekwon
  • coinage_media02:17:15 PM

    Don't steal. I appreciate all the questions. Those are all good. Appreciate that. And you hopping up here to echo off of one of those too. I mean, when we talk about, I guess, the emergency fund that C's been floating in crypto, I guess I've shared my opinions on that. But at least the Fed has kind of a dual mandate, right, when it comes to price stability. And a lot of people might say they've been failing on that recently and full employment, I mean, when it comes to an emergency fund that mig

    coinage_media
  • stablekwon02:17:28 PM

    Hey, I I think we lost you.

    stablekwon
  • zguz02:17:50 PM

    And I think we we lost it on the.

    zguz
  • zguz02:17:52 PM

    On the actual coinage account, but I'll hop on here.

    zguz
  • zguz02:18:01 PM

    Alright, I think we fixed it.

    zguz
  • officialsirguy02:18:13 PM

    Stuck on you still there.

    officialsirguy
  • stablekwon02:18:16 PM

    Yeah, I'm here. I I just missed a lot of what Zach said.

    stablekwon
  • officialsirguy02:18:18 PM

    Yeah.

    officialsirguy
  • officialsirguy02:18:30 PM

    I didn't hear the whole first part of that one, but I think he was asking about the Luna Foundation and your advances on that and what you know kind of asking on.

    officialsirguy
  • officialsirguy02:18:35 PM

    Like the C fund that is, uh, kind of spoken about.

    officialsirguy
  • stablekwon02:18:41 PM

    Umm.

    stablekwon
  • officialsirguy02:18:44 PM

    So I think he meant to ask you about the Luna Foundation and if.

    officialsirguy
  • officialsirguy02:18:47 PM

    Uh.

    officialsirguy
  • officialsirguy02:18:48 PM

    Structuring that.

    officialsirguy
  • officialsirguy02:18:59 PM

    Yeah.

    officialsirguy
  • stablekwon02:18:59 PM

    Well, so the the Luna Foundation guard is, you know, like it's done, right? So there's.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:19:09 PM

    But if you're talking about like the efficacy of CC's emergency fund, I just don't know enough about it, it seems like.

    stablekwon
  • coinage_media02:19:10 PM

    Here.

    coinage_media
  • stablekwon02:19:16 PM

    You know, like a good opportunity to provide liquidity to smaller projects or teams.

    stablekwon
  • officialsirguy02:19:24 PM

    Hmm.

    officialsirguy
  • stablekwon02:19:25 PM

    Um, like at a billion dollars, right? It's like a billion dollars. I don't think it can prevent anything major from going down.

    stablekwon
  • coinage_media02:19:29 PM

    Yeah, sorry, I'm, I'm back on.

    coinage_media
  • coinage_media02:20:01 PM

    The question was more so tied to the idea of actually establishing what a mandate for an emergency fund like the one sees he's talking about might be. Obviously as as the Fed is concerned, the dual mandate there being price stability and full employment, you know those are powers that are given to them by Congress and the way that it was set up, I'd be curious maybe what your warnings could be around the idea of a centralized emergency fund that is run by one of the largest crypto players.

    coinage_media
  • coinage_media02:20:15 PM

    Whether or not they could actually have, you know, unintended consequences when it comes to an industry that's meant to be as decentralized as crypto and maybe some of the warnings perhaps what you've learned around LFG and the way that it functioned for Terra.

    coinage_media
  • stablekwon02:20:23 PM

    Well, the the mandate is a little different, right. So I I think you know.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:20:28 PM

    We'll see. Like he runs a very large company within the crypto industry.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:20:33 PM

    Right. And at the size of his balance sheet, a billion dollars is probably not a lot of money.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:20:41 PM

    And if he can use that opportunity to invest in what he considers to be good projects while at the same time you know.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:20:55 PM

    Uh, you know, help them out of a difficult situation. I I do think it's a net positive for the industry. I think LG was a little bit different like in the sense that, like its main mandate was to buy Bitcoin to be able to create a reserve.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:20:58 PM

    For like the terrico system.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:21:08 PM

    So like the the unique concentration of risks and sort of like the challenge of LG's mandate, I think is a little bit different than what's easy is trying to do.

    stablekwon
  • coinage_media02:21:20 PM

    It's definitely, I think it's definitely harder, but I guess that that's kind of I guess watching it from the outside that would be the concern is that it's if it's a broader mandate at what point do you know what is I guess?

    coinage_media
  • coinage_media02:21:29 PM

    Necessary to step in and backstop some of these things, because then you open the can of worms and I think crypto is always trying to avoid right what is too big to fail.

    coinage_media
  • coinage_media02:21:40 PM

    And what is not? And it's without that mandate or without kind of limiting those powers. I wonder if it's maybe again a potential to open unintended consequences in crypto.

    coinage_media
  • stablekwon02:21:44 PM

    Hmm.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:21:47 PM

    That's a good question, Zach.

    stablekwon
  • coinage_media02:21:54 PM

    Or also, I mean I guess like even LFG like issues you ran into in terms of like even trying to choose who's who's like, I mean you know.

    coinage_media
  • coinage_media02:22:02 PM

    There is a process for putting into place a lot of these people, and if they're not elected, if they're just people on the I don't know if it's any better or worse, but you know, just one thing.

    coinage_media
  • stablekwon02:22:15 PM

    Yeah, but although like I don't think like these particular mechanisms need to be like decentralized per se, because for CZ like his using his own money.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:22:17 PM

    Right, so he's not.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:22:26 PM

    OK, I hope he's not like using finance user money and I don't think he is right. Like he's using the money that he's earned.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:22:36 PM

    Through finance to provide the backstop funds. So the idea that like that decision making process needs to be decentralized, I don't think that's necessarily the case. I just think about it as like a.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:22:41 PM

    Like a private equity funds with like.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:22:55 PM

    I, I, I, I, I guess like a I'll somewhat altruistic secondary goal of trying to make sure that companies that have value don't go down.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:23:08 PM

    And it's kind of a similar situation for Lucci, like most people don't realize this, but how we capitalize LG in the 1st place is donations from TfL, which is an entity that I almost entirely own.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:23:28 PM

    Right so and especially like with Lt like the goal wasn't to act as the Fed for the terror stable point. Like it was like literally just intended to exist until we could like create a mechanism and on chain mechanism for there to be a BTC reserve against which you could redeem USDT.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:23:33 PM

    But at the same time, I think it's when it's like proprietary capital.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:23:36 PM

    Like.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:23:40 PM

    And I don't know if you have a mandate to be adow or.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:23:44 PM

    I'll point to decentralized set of governors.

    stablekwon
  • coinage_media02:24:00 PM

    I think, you know, we're we're still trying to see, uh, what other questions people have and you don't have a limited amount of time here, but one of the questions that continually gets brought up and again being a show that is trying to address community questions.

    coinage_media
  • coinage_media02:24:06 PM

    I'm sure you've faced these from everybody but the Luna Classic community.

    coinage_media
  • coinage_media02:24:09 PM

    Uh, is still very vocal.

    coinage_media
  • coinage_media02:24:16 PM

    I'm curious to get your take I guess on on where that project stands now since you've kind of shifted away.

    coinage_media
  • coinage_media02:24:21 PM

    And and as you've seen that kind of again try to I guess.

    coinage_media
  • coinage_media02:24:26 PM

    Step in to fix a lot of the issues that exist on on Terra classics since you've departed.

    coinage_media
  • stablekwon02:24:34 PM

    So one of the things that's been surprising is there's been.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:24:42 PM

    Like extremely talented people, step up and try to fill the void of what TfL left behind.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:24:45 PM

    And.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:24:54 PM

    Like I I don't really discuss this publicly but I've I've had discussions with several of these builders that have reached out and.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:25:03 PM

    I well, not, not not only builders, but just like Luna, Classic Community members, right? So for some of them.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:25:12 PM

    Umm, you know, there's just, you know, very price sensitive. They would ask questions like oh, when doing seed to the moon or something like that.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:25:18 PM

    But I I think for like the the ones with whom I've had a continuous conversation, I I've just been impressed by.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:25:24 PM

    Like the the depth of your background and the amount of thoughts that they've put into like.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:25:29 PM

    You know, building a working economy on top of Luna Classic.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:25:36 PM

    Um, which I I think is is not an outcome honestly that I was expecting like when?

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:25:38 PM

    After coming out of the May crash.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:25:49 PM

    I think the challenge that Luna Classic faces now is it's it's a very large and diverse community that hasn't had a time to.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:26:15 PM

    You know, grow together, right? So sort of in that community that was formed in chaos, like the resulting discussions and the governor's process and people's understanding of what this is supposed to be is also chaos. So you have talented factions with varying degrees of sophistication that are wanting different outcomes and different directions for the chain and the community.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:26:26 PM

    And I think that's the unique challenge that pyroclastic needs to solve now is to come together under, if not a common direction at least.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:26:31 PM

    You know a common set of values that the community stands for.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:26:39 PM

    And if they're able to do that then I I think it's it's it's going to do well if.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:26:43 PM

    They are not able to do that then I would say.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:26:45 PM

    Things are going to be pretty challenge.

    stablekwon
  • coinage_media02:26:59 PM

    Um, as you kind of again, as we discussed, you're still active, yeah, I guess in in the Luna 2.0 movement and trying to build that out we've discussed.

    coinage_media
  • zguz02:27:58 PM

    I don't know why that is happening, but I think, I don't know. Twitter spaces have had issues when you cross the 3000, I think, number on this at least between 2 phones. We're trying to make this work. But no, I mean, when you're talking about, I guess, what happens now, right, we've seen kind of enthusiasm prices across the board for projects that may have been established a little bit longer than 2.0. I mean, you mentioned before in our interview that it doesn't necessarily mean anything.

    zguz
  • zguz02:28:17 PM

    Be building in the bear. In fact, I think you mentioned it's better to be building in the bear for launching a new project and getting off the ground. I mean, what kind of challenges have you seen? And I guess again, trust issues aside, but just the engineering pieces of enthusiasm in the space waiting with crash after crash, collapse after collapse, building that project out.

    zguz
  • stablekwon02:28:23 PM

    Well, so.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:28:35 PM

    I I can only speak to the the teams that I've had an opportunity to work with closely or like with respect to my team, but just in general like.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:28:40 PM

    People that like really enjoyed the process of building.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:28:43 PM

    Um and.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:28:49 PM

    Yeah, they they just don't really like trade or like pay attention to what's happening in the markets all that much anyway.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:29:17 PM

    And this is in some cases like a blessing and a curse, right? So, you know, like when there was a lot of attention, like people would just look at TfL and thought it was just like me and like a couple of different dudes. But no, like it was, it was a large team and we had lots of people, right. And that's largely as a function of, you know, lots of people in the team not like they they don't want the publicity. They don't care about and they don't actually like even trade.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:29:18 PM

    All that much?

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:29:29 PM

    I I think like for people that just like enjoy the process of building and like as long as they're being paid enough so that they don't have to worry about food or rent.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:29:36 PM

    Like just in general, like I don't think like whether it's a bull market or a bear market like really impacts their productivity very much.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:29:41 PM

    Um, like bear, markets are great to focus, right? Because they're less people.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:30:02 PM

    Like pinging for your time? There's this conferences and podcasts and less attention in general, so I think it's easier to focus and get something done. But yeah, I don't. I don't think the crashes of centralized exchanges are like terrible or not would have had a material impact on people that are truly passionate about the space under willingness to build.

    stablekwon
  • coinage_media02:30:28 PM

    Umm.

    coinage_media
  • coinage_media02:30:36 PM

    I think we're getting close to the end on this. Space is done as we wrapped up pretty much everything here.

    coinage_media
  • coinage_media02:31:00 PM

    I think there is, you know, a lot of questions that are just you know right now piling in a lot to get to in the spaces. And again I know you only said you had an hour of free, so I appreciate you sticking around to answer most of the other questions. Lastly though is we kind of talk about again to contrast everything that you've seen, what might be the last point that you would want to leave people with in terms of what we.

    coinage_media
  • stablekwon02:31:10 PM

    OK, well he dropped off again, but I think I got the gist.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:31:11 PM

    Umm.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:31:13 PM

    Hmm.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:31:18 PM

    Well, so I I said this earlier like in.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:31:20 PM

    Well, let's call this an AMA.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:31:22 PM

    But.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:31:28 PM

    Like a lot of people are hurting right now, the markets are absolutely terrible and.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:31:30 PM

    You know.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:31:35 PM

    A lot of people have funds locked up in FTX. A lot of people.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:31:38 PM

    You know, lost money, but.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:31:41 PM

    I I think the.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:31:48 PM

    Like, the important thing to focus on is just, you know.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:32:01 PM

    Trying to focus on the facts, like getting down to the truth of the matter. So I think anger is justified and it's fine. And for people, for for those of you that can best find closure through speculation, I think that's OK too.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:32:07 PM

    But at the end of the day, like we don't learn and move, you know, forward as an industry.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:32:20 PM

    Unless we we can truly just, you know, look at just that, the facts of what happened, and then try to construct mechanisms and systems whereby we can do better so that stuff like this doesn't happen again.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:32:33 PM

    Right. So and and I think that means that like as tempting as it is to you know, you know, demonize, let's say SBF is like a drug addled, you know.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:32:40 PM

    Sex orgy fueled a type of scammer like which could be true.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:33:10 PM

    And like, but like, the facts and situations like this take some time to play out. And based on those facts, I think we need to have a balanced discussion, not absolving SBF. I you know, once again, I I think probably what transpired with FX and Alameda is absolutely terrible, but we need to construct ways and have a discussion and a dialogue on how we as an industry can prevent situations like this from happening again.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:33:13 PM

    Right. And I I don't think like.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:33:14 PM

    You know.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:33:24 PM

    People calling Sam like a meth abuser and then just, you know, like crying for him to be put in jail. He's at least not the full solution.

    stablekwon
  • coinage_media02:33:55 PM

    Alright, well I appreciate you taking the time to chat with us. Obviously there's still a few people on the space. I want to remind everybody that coinage is the Community owned show in crypto that is trying to answer the big questions here and I appreciate everyone weighing in thus far on all the episode topics that we've chosen on the season. I want to appreciate that. I want to give a shout out to seals for coming up here and asking questions as well as we wrap the spaces up.

    coinage_media
  • officialsirguy02:34:14 PM

    Yep. Thank you, Zach. I really appreciate you having me and I appreciate you coming on. Duquan. I did have one last question for you. Do you think this is a matter of market capitulation or are we in for a total reset and reconstruction period?

    officialsirguy
  • officialsirguy02:34:18 PM

    I.

    officialsirguy
  • officialsirguy02:34:25 PM

    And.

    officialsirguy
  • stablekwon02:34:27 PM

    I I think the the market's going to be pretty bearish for some time. I don't, I don't, I don't know what it means for the market to capitulate.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:34:31 PM

    Um, like if it's capitulation, I think it's going to look worse.

    stablekwon
  • officialsirguy02:34:32 PM

    Yeah.

    officialsirguy
  • stablekwon02:34:33 PM

    Umm.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:34:37 PM

    I mean, I mean just in general like.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:34:41 PM

    I think if we're like trading crypto because.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:34:52 PM

    For the next few weeks or the next few months matter, then I don't think that's the right way to do it. Like like if you need to worry about runway for like the next few months, you definitely shouldn't be trading crypto.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:35:00 PM

    Um, or like working in the industry. And like, hopefully like you're getting paid enough so that you don't have to worry about food at least.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:35:07 PM

    And I think there's still like resources and teams that are still hiring. So I think from that perspective.

    stablekwon
  • stablekwon02:35:11 PM

    Um, like builders are going to be insulated.

    stablekwon
  • officialsirguy02:35:18 PM

    Yeah, I agree.

    officialsirguy
  • stablekwon02:35:20 PM

    But yeah, I mean, I I think we're in this for the long haul. So like I I think that, yeah.

    stablekwon
  • officialsirguy02:35:26 PM

    Alright, awesome man. Well, I really appreciate you coming on and I'll, I'll let Zach take it from here.

    officialsirguy
  • officialsirguy02:35:37 PM

    Maybe is mikes not working?

    officialsirguy
  • officialsirguy02:35:44 PM

    But yeah, no, I appreciate you coming on, duquan. I appreciate you having us here with coinage media.

    officialsirguy
  • officialsirguy02:35:55 PM

    The only uh, code NFT show and yeah, hopefully you can get his mic working. If not, we know you're short on time so.

    officialsirguy
  • officialsirguy02:36:00 PM

    Really appreciate you coming on and also I see WAB etc.

    officialsirguy
  • officialsirguy02:36:07 PM

    In the spaces and love to talk to you about seals related things later on.

    officialsirguy
  • stablekwon02:36:11 PM

    OK, alright. Thank you. Signing off. Bye, bye.

    stablekwon
  • officialsirguy02:36:14 PM

    Thanks to Quan. Bye, bye.

    officialsirguy
  • officialsirguy02:36:30 PM

    Sorry guys, having a bit of mic troubles at the studio.

    officialsirguy
  • officialsirguy02:36:38 PM

    If anyone wants to come up here and kind of dissect what just was spoken about, please do.

    officialsirguy
  • kristieonair02:37:09 PM

    OK guys, so apparently we lost connection over at the studio. I just want to sign off real quick for coinage. We decided to do this interview because our community was asking a lot of questions about the recent collapse with FTX, and one of the biggest questions we saw coming through when we were talking about the spaces is the connection between Dequan and FTX. So we did the spaces to try to ask the questions our community was asking. We're also going to be dropping an episode next week. It'll

    kristieonair
  • zguz02:37:25 PM

    Yeah. I'll just echo.

    zguz
  • kristieonair02:37:26 PM

    That's FTX collapse and we're going to answer more questions. If you have any questions that we didn't answer during the spaces, feel free to message us or join the discord and drop your questions in there. Thanks again for tuning in, Zachary. Back on thank God because I lost my voice.

    kristieonair
  • kristieonair02:37:31 PM

    I'm so sorry.

    kristieonair
  • zguz02:37:57 PM

    Well, Christy, yes, our our community lead has been battling the flu and managing all of this as well. But yes, I'll just echo all of that and I appreciate everyone tuning into the spaces again if there are other things that you want us to cover, this is the whole point that we form this community and why trust this media raised money in the 1st place and now ironically I suppose has those funds to use here after all those collapses to help the Community address some of the questions that are ou

    zguz
  • zguz02:38:28 PM

    Again presented without bias in a way that the community is able to weigh in on and fact checked us and not just have us presenting our take on any of these issues but appreciate everyone tuning in and we hope to ask what we hope to host a lot more of these on the coinage web three spaces. Again you can go to coinage dot media slash join to help us build the first community owned crypto show targeting a mainstream audience to try and explain why a lot of these issues matter. Why decentralization

    zguz
  • zguz02:38:44 PM

    Matters for an industry and again myself custody at the end of the day is a pretty important concept to be teaching everybody in this space as well. But thank you for tuning in. Appreciate it again coinage dot media slash join if you'd like to join us in building what we are trying to put out there for the world. Thanks everybody.

    zguz